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#81 2072

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 01:19 AM

Read that: http://www.microsoft...echVisionPR.asp

(the beginning of the article is very interesting, especially for republicans :) )

#82 betoe

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 06:19 AM

Its very difficult trust in the information that we read on internet, or see on TV. But its impossible to go to irak to see what is happening, by example :P. I think that a high percent of the information we receive isn't exactly the reality.

Also I think that maybe Michael Moore is trying to be famous or cause polemic, and earn some money doing this farenheit 9/11 movie. Hope i will go to a movie teathre to watch this movie some day.

#83 huhn_m

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 07:44 AM

1) You can not visit Iraq but you can watch F911 since MM went there and filmed

2) MM doesn't want to make money. He doesn't mind publishing his
films to others and even asked the publisher to make it
available on DVD before election because everyone can watch it then
and he clearly recommends to hold "movie evenings" arround the neighbouthood so not everyone has to buy the movie.

I think what MM does IS really patriotic but you don't notive it

#84 2072

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 02:06 PM

He even said that he doesn't mind if F911 is shared on P2P networks, that this is even better...

http://www.sundayherald.com/43167

#85 Bob Vila

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 05:56 PM

anyway, i heard something on the radio today that might have signifigant effect on this discussion: Sean Hannity (my favoite talk radio guy) has challenged Michel Moore to a debate, the prize being that the winner (decided by the audiance) will get to donate $5,000 (donated by a local college) to the childrens charity of their choice. the deal behind this is that this college was going to pay moore to come speak at their college and the students and community was outraged that they were going to have thier tuition spent on moore speaking weather they liked it or not, thus they called up hannity and voulenteered to pay for his expenses if he would come as well to counter moore. it was hannity who suggested that moore come "at cost" as well and donate the rest of his fee to be the prize for winning (to be donated to the charity), if moore refuses hannity will put up the money himself, but it will look bad for moore. if moore refuses to debate hannity he will not only look bad, but hannity will hold his own speach at the same time as moore and we will see who draws a bigger crowd. Hannity has forced moore to debate him and im sure the results will be interesting

do you know what college it is? cause i was listening to the radio yesterday, and they were having an announcement that MM was coming to UVSC (Utah Valley State College) and most all the students were pretty mad cause they didnt like MM and thought it was a waste of their tuition money. didnt hear anything about hannity though. but if it is the college, i bet hannity will draw the bigger crowd cause nobody wanted mm, only like 2 people that called in were actually happy that he was coming :roflol:

#86 2072

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 10:03 PM

It would be useless for MM to talk to people who already have understood the truth... :/ That prooves again that he is really trying to change something.

#87 Killer83Z

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 10:27 PM

I think that a high percent of the information we receive isn't exactly the reality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the most part it is worse.

#88 ross8653

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 05:41 AM

i do not listen to the radio much but that station could be bias either way. So a vote by the audience seems fair, but it might not work out to be that way.

We both know it's eaiser to only listen to and view the things that agree with your opinion, and you are more likly to dismiss opinions of others if they don't agree with yours.

Have you ever compared a stroy on cnn.com to foxnews.com to the associated press? it's amazing what changes are made to each network. http://www.outfoxed.com

But it's also easy to complain about something and realize that nothing can be exactly fair. So being a cynic like me doesn't help the situation either :P

#89 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 07:16 AM

once again, i agree compleatly :)
hannity is undoubtably biased tward the right, but moore is biased to the left (everyone is biased to an extent though)... in this case its gona be who is most right, not who is totally right.

#90 Bob Vila

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:00 PM

do you know which college it is crimson?

It would be useless for MM to talk to people who already have understood the truth... :/ That prooves again that he is really trying to change something.

actually, the reason he is coming is because the college is paying him ;)

#91 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 09:37 PM

no, i dont know which college... i forget :(

#92 Bob Vila

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 10:33 PM

i did a little searching on google, and i guess it is at UVSC :) only about 2.5 hours away...

#93 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 10:43 PM

you should go see it bob :D

#94 Bob Vila

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 02:50 AM

i would, but i dont think that my parents would let me drive that far on my own, specially in the middle of the school year :hammer:

#95 dscoshpe

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 08:27 AM

Wow, long thread... I havent read any of the posts after the 10th or so, but I cant pass on an oppurtunity to get in to a political discussion, so heres my opinion.

I am an American who will be voting, and I *do* vote.. So, Bush vs Kerry, who to pick? Well, I was having a discussion about this with my friend and we came to a few conclusions.

Kerry, while not bush, is extremely unpredictable. He is the epitome of a professional politician and is a highly trained public speaker so he knows *how* to sound good (he was the star of a college debate team). Bush, tends to be Bush-ish and fall short of certain expectations, but he is predictable and you can count on him to be Bush-ish.. So we decided that Kerry was like a taxi - you could end up anywhere and probably be raped by the fare *if* it doesnt crash, and Bush was like a broken down car in that you dont want to be in it *when* it crashes. The conclusion is that we have no decent candidate, we are essentially screwed either way. I still dont know who I will vote for.

Regarding terrorism, Im not sure that it can ever be stamped out. I think it can be made dormant at best. As long as there is an unequal distribution of power and wealth, and someone is looking up at someone else there will be envy and disdain, and following will be violent manifestations of those feelings. The solution to the problem is the solution to economics as a science, which is an impossible solution. Personally, I think the best decision the US could make is to finish the job it started and to do everything our government representatives promised we would do. I think if the terrorists had a real keen mind they would recognize this and make sure that we accomplish every last bit of reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan, they should make sure we build every last road and stock every last school with materials that would ultimately impact our own school's materials, they should in essence try to makes us go broke rebuilding their infrastructure and securing their future. We have a saying for these methods "making the System work for you". As it is now, a rushed exit from Iraq and Afghanistan will result in unfulfilled promises and concessions in building being done. Is this not a valid point? If my neighbor came to my house and broke my shit, Id make sure he restored every last speck of dust and maybe more. Hell, as an American I should hope we get out soon, it will save me on my taxes.. But Im not that way, and if we are in some shit I expect to wade through it until the job is done.

Also, since Im talking all political... The issues that we have to talk about are not exactly what I consider to be the toughest issues we face. In my opinion, babies born to unfit/unwilling/immature parents are the #1 issue in any country. A Humans are the deadliest weapon the Earth has ever developed, and a human who has not had a proper raising is bound to lash out against those who seem to have had one. But this is a different topic.

Just wait 30 more years, and Ill give this president thing a try!

- dscoshpe -

#96 huhn_m

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 11:18 AM

woow... good statment ... you might be right concerning
kerry and you certainly are right when you say bush is predictable.

The problem is, that in fact he is not the one who makes the politic
but he is "helped" by certein persons that belong to the
rightest of the right wings of the republicans :). You know the name
Wolfowitz and Cheney you know. Anyways. Even if I sometimes say bush is bad or things like that it should actually read "bush is silly and bad people like wolfowitz make your politics".

Actually I would not mind bush as a president. What bothers me are
the right powers that stand behind him. They decide for him and
his is the problem. There are some very nice cartoonns about this
topic.

#97 Bob Vila

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 03:49 AM

My sister that lives in Provo (where kerry and hannity will debate) called to tell me about it and that everyone is getting pretty excited see Hannity rip Moore apart :lol: she was going to go see it, but she dosent have a car ;)

btw, did anyone see the debate tonight?

#98 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 04:12 AM

I did, and honestly i think kerry did a better job overall. though i still think bush is actually human, wheras kerry seems like a machine... also i noticed that kerry once again contradicted himself.

btw, last i heard Moore backed down from his debate with hannity, he's also refusing to come on hannity's show (radio or tv). in response hannity is planning on making vists to more colleges to counter moore. In my book that takes away all creadability from moore, if he wont even participate in a debate for charity...

#99 2072

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 05:31 AM

I did watch it too, I may have missed the beginning though. Bush appears like a simple human and Kerry as a professional politician...

btw did you consider my gift?

MM is in fact talking to colleges:
http://www.michaelmo...Date=2004-09-25

and look at the headlines their, some are intersting: http://www.michaelmoore.com/


The problem with Hannity (if the debate happens) is that it won't convince people to vote for Bush but to not watch F911 (the result is the same of course).
Anyway, it would be stubid for both of you (Crimson and Bob) to watch the debate since you are "afraid to watch F911", you wouldn't have any chance to agree with Moore since you didn't watch his film.
Hannity's job is to talk so he will convince you that MM is wrong, and MM who's job isn't to talk won't have a chance...
It's like if MM invited Hannity to make a movie to proove his ideas, we already know that MM would win.

#100 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 07:02 AM

yes, and im still considering... if i have time over the weekend i may watch it.

i know MM is taking to colleges... i brought that up... :blink:

i looked at the headlines, the one by Eisenhower's son is pretty good (in fact i think its the most well-reasoned argument aginst bush, but in the end its still just opinion... Eisenhower simply disagrees with bush and thats fine)

The problem with Hannity (if the debate happens) is that it won't convince people to vote for Bush but to not watch F911 (the result is the same of course).
Anyway, it would be stubid for both of you (Crimson and Bob) to watch the debate since you are "afraid to watch F911", you wouldn't have any chance to agree with Moore since you didn't watch his film.
Hannity's job is to talk so he will convince you that MM is wrong, and MM who's job isn't to talk won't have a chance...
It's like if MM invited Hannity to make a movie to proove his ideas, we already know that MM would win.


that doesnt make any sense at all... ive just said that I thought that kerry did very well in his debate aginst the president, i always keep an open mind. amoung other things it is MM's job to talk, what do you think hes been doing at those colleges? btw, hannity has made a movie, though its not in the same catagory as MM's movie (its a video of his last tour around the US). if hannity and MM were to debate then only a small portion of that debate would concern MM's movie, hannity has already said that most of the movie is quite good and if not for a few misrepresentations it would have made an excelent documentary.

#101 2072

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 01:15 PM

yes, and im still considering... if i have time over the weekend i may watch it.


Great :D


i know MM is taking to colleges... i brought that up...


Well I meant, he is doing it right know (since 5 days), and I'm not sure that those colleges are paying him to come to talk.

i looked at the headlines, the one by Eisenhower's son is pretty good (in fact i think its the most well-reasoned argument aginst bush, but in the end its still just opinion... Eisenhower simply disagrees with bush and thats fine)


Yes I agree with you but he is also saying that Bush & Co. didn't respect the republican principles that made him (Eisenhower's son) vote republican for the last 50 years, so if you vote for Bush & Co. you're not voting for republicans but for Bush special party.

that doesnt make any sense at all... ive just said that I thought that kerry did very well in his debate aginst the president, i always keep an open mind.


Here I was commenting what you said about Hannity only, sorry if I was misleading, I appreciate your open mind else I won't be trying to convince you :D

amoung other things it is MM's job to talk, what do you think hes been doing at those colleges? btw, hannity has made a movie, though its not in the same catagory as MM's movie (its a video of his last tour around the US). 


Yes everybody can talk but Hannity is paid, loved and recognized for it, that's his main job so he is ncessarily more effective than any body else at talking and convincing in a public debate.

if hannity and MM were to debate then only a small portion of that debate would concern MM's movie, hannity has already said that most of the movie is quite good and if not for a few misrepresentations it would have made an excelent documentary.


Yes but the main argument of MM is F911, all is thoughts about Bush & Co. are in this movie, so if you didn't watch it you may only have hearsays about MM to oppose to Hannity's arguments (and what MM says of course but he already said everything in F911, he can't say as much by talking only)... When I say 'you' I consider all the people who didn't watch F911 not you particularly.
About the few misrepresentations in F911, I must admit that there are a few but it may only represents 1% (or even less) of F911 arguments to prove you that Bush & Co. cannot have your trust nor deserve your vote.

#102 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 05:02 PM

Well I meant, he is doing it right know (since 5 days), and I'm not sure that those colleges are paying him to come to talk.


they are, articles on his own site say so (if a bit evasively).

Yes I agree with you but he is also saying that Bush & Co. didn't respect the republican principles that made him (Eisenhower's son) vote republican for the last 50 years, so if you vote for Bush & Co. you're not voting for republicans but for Bush special party.


in Eisenhower's oppion, yes. but there's a commonly recognised shift in the two parties where they litterally inverted each other, had I been alive durring the JFK era i would have been a democrat, and had JFK been alive today he would have been a republican. (btw, kerry mentioned at least 3 times in his debate yesterday that he wanted to be more like JFK, does that mean he aspires to be a republican? i rather tink he was just tossing around a popular name to sway the masses... but you never know ;) )

oh, and Eisenhower mentioned that he didnt like the way bush was spending so much money... well that tends to happen durring a war, not to mention the 4 billion dollars he has funneled into florida to help with disaster relief.

Yes everybody can talk but Hannity is paid, loved and recognized for it, that's his main job so he is ncessarily more effective than any body else at talking and convincing in a public debate.


yeah... and kerry was the star of his highschool debate team, yet bush still debated him and did a pretty good job. heck, if kerry and hannity were to debate that would be fine... it would still come to the same. besides, MM is a pundit above all else, he would be good in a debate because he could get out of a situation wih hummor wheras most people could not.

Yes but the main argument of MM is F911, all is thoughts about Bush & Co. are in this movie, so if you didn't watch it you may only have hearsays about MM to oppose to Hannity's arguments (and what MM says of course but he already said everything in F911, he can't say as much by talking only)... When I say 'you' I consider all the people who didn't watch F911 not you particularly.
About the few misrepresentations in F911, I must admit that there are a few but it may only represents 1% (or even less) of F911 arguments to prove you that Bush & Co. cannot have your trust nor deserve your vote.


now, if i had a transcript of the movie that would be perfect... then i could read MM's opinions but not watch the movie. however, if MM has already said everything in F911 tell me, what has he said about kerry? has he answered the questions about kerry's unamerican actions? has he explained all of kerry's lies? has he acually be able to tell up what kerry's position is? did he explain his own behavior at the democratic primaries? did he even mention anything good at all about whats happened and is still happening? F911 is not MM's brain served on a silver platter, im sure hannity could come up with a hundred more things not in F911 that bear looking at, but my memory isnt as good as his; most of what hannity talks about are the things MM and others wont talk about.

#103 2072

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 10:01 PM

yeah... and kerry was the star of his highschool debate team, yet bush still debated him and did a pretty good job. heck, if kerry and hannity were to debate that would be fine... it would still come to the same. besides, MM is a pundit above all else, he would be good in a debate because he could get out of a situation wih hummor whereas most people could not.


You're maybe right but I don't know MM capabilities in debates (never seen him in any debate).

now, if i had a transcript of the movie that would be perfect... then i could read MM's opinions but not watch the movie. however, if MM has already said everything in F911 tell me, what has he said about kerry? has he answered the questions about kerry's unamerican actions? has he explained all of kerry's lies? has he acually be able to tell up what kerry's position is? did he explain his own behavior at the democratic primaries? did he even mention anything good at all about whats happened and is still happening? F911 is not MM's brain served on a silver platter, im sure hannity could come up with a hundred more things not in F911 that bear looking at, but my memory isnt as good as his; most of what hannity talks about are the things MM and others wont talk about.


Well you cannot transcript a movie, Moore isn't saying things, he is showing them... If I give you a transcript of Star Wars I'm not sure you'll like it :/

And F911 is a real movie, and so it has to be watched to talk about it ;)

Now their is obviously something you got wrong: MM NEVER says anything about Kerry, He don't ask you to vote for Kerry, the name of "Kerry" isn't even pronounced in the whole movie (as far as I remember). MM is just talking about Bush & Co., his purpose is to convince the audience to not vote for Bush... not even to not vote republican just to not vote for Bush!

#104 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 03:02 AM

thats nice, but whats to say kerry isnt worse if your only hearing that bush is bad?

#105 2072

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 08:35 PM

The probability of being worse than bush is very low... At least Kerry doesn't appear to be a stupid 'cow boy' only here because he is his father's son nor manipulated by rich companies.

#106 Bob Vila

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 09:43 PM

i dont know why you guys keep calling bush "stupid" when the only other person who has a chance of getting in the white house got at least 1 of his purple hearts from self inflicted wounds! now that is stupid. and none of the wounds caused him to lose any action or spend anytime in leave.

http://www.davidstuf...t/coulter14.htm http://www.learnedha.../kerryunfit.htm he's a wimp and a traitor, sounds like a winner :nod:

Edited by Bob Vila, 02 October 2004 - 09:50 PM.


#107 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 11:33 PM

bush isnt the smartest person, but i think hes honest. kerry is an outright liar and/or incompetant.

#108 2072

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 01:52 PM

Bush honest???? Damn! How can you think that after what he has done and said? Are you blind?

I know you won't watch my gift but I ask you again, if you just watch the first hour (where there is absolutely no 'violence'), you'll have a better knowledge about what Bush really is...

i dont know why you guys keep calling bush "stupid" when the only other person who has a chance of getting in the white house got at least 1 of his purple hearts from self inflicted wounds! now that is stupid. and none of the wounds caused him to lose any action or spend anytime in leave.


If ever it's true, that's still better than what Bush did during this war, far away from the conflict in a no risk duty (Thank to his father's protection). At least Kerry knows what is war, maybe he'll think twice before sending soldier to death.

#109 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 04:11 PM

If ever it's true, that's still better than what Bush did during this war, far away from the conflict in a no risk duty (Thank to his father's protection). At least Kerry knows what is war, maybe he'll think twice before sending soldier to death.


thats 100% not true, its propaganda put out by the democrats. this story and the forged papers that supposedly proved it both came from the same guy in kerry's staff (who btw is writing a book). this guy also testified under oath 4 years ago that he did not help bush get into the national guard at the request of his father (then president). the great thing is that the guy did not even have the position he claims to have had (and would have allowed him to do this) at that time. even his own daughter has called him a liar! how much proof do you need?

bush has never been caught in a lie, kerry has. everything that bush said that people say is a lie kerry is also on record as saying... so in terms of honesty bush is relativley 100% more honest than kerry.

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 05:31 PM

This is Bob's sister, Chani. I would like to know how this forum feels about the fact that there are two members of the same secret society that are vying for control over the most powerful nation in the world.

Kerry is a vacillating sycophant who is so desperate for support that he will bend to whomever will raise a hand in his favor. I am afraid to think of how he would have reacted to the 9/11 tragedy! I fear that there would have been no action taken, and the US would have been open to more than that terrible tragedy: instead of strengthening a nation, and uniting its people against terrorism, he would have created an uproar against himself, and the strength of the United States would fall.

Bush is a man of action. He is not as charasmatic and well-spoken as Kerry, but I trust what he says. I did not vote for him in the previous election. (I did not agree with some of his views on the state of our national and state lands, which was and is a topic very important to me.) However, after his reaction to the 9/11 incident, he had my full support. I do not support war. But I also do not support a president who would allow such a heinous act to take place, and not be able to decide which course of action should be taken. Lives have been lost in this war, and close friends of mine are fighting it still. I don't know if they will come back, if I'll get to see them again. But I know that they support their president and are willing to give up their life to protect that of their countrymen.

I have seen F9/11, and do not agree with the statement that it is factual and a proper representation of the state of the Union and the war. It is biased, self-serving propaganda. Where are the soldiers who agree with the war and support Pres. Bush? The only ones that are shown, are those that are complaining and want to run home to mama. If they could not support a president or a war that has brought down one of the most evil men on earth, then they have no right to be soldiers in the United States military. It is their duty as soldiers and volunteers to support the Commander in Chief, as outlined in the by-laws of the military.

Hannity, who will be debating with MM, said in his book Deliver Us From Evil, "As the 2004 presidential campaign unfolds, the Democrats will pound away with their politically motivated questions: Did we have to go to war? Should we have waited a little while longer? Did the president shade the truth? Have we alientated the French?
The American people should ask a different quesiton: When it comes to protecting American lives, and preserving freedom around the world, whom do you trust to get the job done?"

#111 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 05:59 PM

wow bob, invite your sister more often :D

though i dont know what you mean by:

I would like to know how this forum feels about the fact that there are two members of the same secret society that are vying for control over the most powerful nation in the world.



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Posted 03 October 2004 - 06:02 PM

Chani again..

This may start something.. oops. :) 3 generations of Bushs, and John Kerry, are members of the secret society the Skull and Bones Society, founded at Yale.

Bush is a member more as a family tradition, and doens't have much to do with it now; Kerry has no family ties to the society. Just found it ironic that they are both members of the same SS and are both vying for the presidency.

#113 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 06:16 PM

i dont know anything about that, but secret societies aside i think you had good points :)

btw, do you know when and where the hannity & MM debate will be? last i heard it wasnt going to happen.

#114 huhn_m

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 06:29 PM

[quote]thats 100% not true, its propaganda put out by the democrats. [/quote]

Of course this is not true ... then show me ONE picture where Bush is shown durring the war with at LEAST one other soldier on the pic prooving it!

(I don't want to sth. like the movie when he was "ending" the war against iraq IN FRONT OF THE US COAST! pretending to be near to the battles)

[quote]bush has never been caught in a lie, kerry has. everything that bush said that people say is a lie kerry is also on record as saying... so in terms of honesty bush is relativley 100% more honest than kerry.[/quote]

Damnit how blind can you possibly be?!??!?!

"Iraq HAS wapeons of mass destruction"
"Saddam helped Osama Bin laden and is housing El Quaida"
...


[quote]This is Bob's sister, Chani[/quote]

Great to see you here and welcome to this forum!

[quote]I would like to know how this forum feels about the fact that there are two members of the same secret society that are vying for control over the most powerful nation in the world.[/quote]

After I saw what bush did there is no doubt for me that kerry MUST be the better
choice. If he is not vote for nader ;)

[quote]I am afraid to think of how he would have reacted to the 9/11 tragedy!  I fear that there would have been no action taken,[/quote]

I'm afraid your country would NOT have violated international treaties and have attacked a souvereign nation that DID no harm to them and DID not intend to.
I'm afraid you would NOT have murdered people that are not quilty for a crime they did not AND I'm afraid you would not have a thing like Guantanamo (spelling?) where you hold people in prisson violating their human rights, without any proof and without ANY trial.

[quote]instead of strengthening a nation, and uniting its people against terrorism, he would have created an uproar against himself, and the strength of the United States would fall.[/quote]

He might not have enchanted the people to believe things WITHOUT proof and to tollerate an attack on a souvereign state. He might have THOUGHT before acting.
He might have been RESPECTED IN THE WORLD

[quote]Bush is a man of action. [/quote]
Hitler was too
[quote]He is not as charasmatic and well-spoken as Kerry, but I trust what he says.
[/quote]

Then I feel with your nation and will pray for all americans that think like you.
May God bless you and save your souls ... hold on ... he won't you declated a war
in his name ... but you can still hope

[quote]I do not support war.[/quote]
So you seam to support the weapons industry or the military household of 100Billion
WITHOUT the costs of the war? If you support bush you support the war.
He stated it himself. "If you are not with us you are against us". I'm not with you but
I'm not against you. Maybe this does not fit your black & white sight of things
but you must accept that there are ways in between.

[quote]But I also do not support a president who would allow such a heinous act to take place, and not be able to decide which course of action should be taken.  Lives have been lost in this war, and close friends of mine are fighting it still.  I don't know if they will come back, if I'll get to see them again. But I know that they support their president and are willing to give up their life to protect that of their countrymen.[/quote]

I heared a woman who lost here man on the pensilvanian airplane speak on the
republican convention. I was shocked. She said here man has died for the nation and she was proud of him (till here I agree) AND that she was proud that HER SON was going to fight the war for the US in several months (weeks? I don't remember).

How can a mother WITH A HEART say such at hing. So she is proud of loosing another member if her familiy. I'm sure her man did a very patriotic thing AND I'm sure that If I was the man I would STILL not appreciate this. It is ... inhuman...

[quote]I have seen F9/11, and do not agree with the statement that it is factual and a proper representation of the state of the Union and the war.  It is biased, self-serving propaganda.  Where are the soldiers who agree with the war and support Pres. Bush? The only ones that are shown, are those that are complaining and want to run home to mama.[/quote]

Maybe because they are the majority (at least of thos that stayed normal and did not
torture the iraqis? Maybe because this shows the FACE OF WAR? Watch the movie

"Im westen nichts neues" (from germany) it is the best movie concerning WW2 and
it for sure would show you some aspects of war that you might not now. Maybe anyone has to make his own mistakes but I think it is silly not to hear on others.
I remember how in the movies that young guys were proud to go to war
and what they became after several months of it. There is for sure also an american
translation. WATCH IT! I can only recommend it since THIS is for me the real
face of war.

[quote]If they could not support a president or a war that has brought down one of the most evil men on earth, then they have no right to be soldiers in the United States military.  It is their duty as soldiers and volunteers to support the Commander in Chief, as outlined in the by-laws of the military.  [/quote]

As it was for the germans in WW2 they were proud to serve a man who broke down
the restrictions and the shame of the treaty of versailles.

[quote]The American people should ask a different quesiton:  When it comes to protecting American lives, and preserving freedom around the world, whom do you trust to get the job done?"[/quote]

So your protect you lives in iraq? Like the germany do protect germany on the
"Hindukusch" (Don't knwo the english name)?

*edit*

Bush got his job in the army AT HOME because of his SS relations ...
Like you protected you nation in vietnam.

*edit*

I don't know why the rendering of my tags fails. I hope you can udnerstand what I mean though :) Maybe I'll fix it tomorrow.

#115 Chani

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 07:31 PM

Huhn, ich verstehe nicht. Ist das Hindukursch ein Berg neben Afghanistan?

I agree with some of the things you said. I know, I'm playing devil's advocate. :rolleyes: Personally, I find it difficult to completely pro or con anything. But I do feel strongly about the war.

I can't condone everything that Bush has done, but you also must consider the human factor. Some of the awful things that were done in the prisons were conducted by individual militants, not condoned or ordered by Bush. I'm sure that every leader in the known world has had some subbordinate who has exceeded his limit of power or morals. This is awful, and I wish that it didn't happen.

My boyfriend has considered enlisting in the Air Force as a air maintenance tech. I must confess that I do not want him to do this, but I also must understand that if our country needs him, he will go to war, and most likely to Iraq. I don't entirely understand why the woman who spoke at the RNC was happy that her son was going to serve in the army, but I understand the patriotism of it all, to an extent.

I have not seen "Im westen nichts neues", but have wanted to read the book for awhile now. The summary reminds me of an American book, "All Quiet on the Western Front." Das ist ein meisten gelesene Buch (es tut mir leid, mein Deutsch is nichts jetzt so gut!) Haben Sie es gelesen?

#116 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 08:01 PM

nice try huhn, but read more carefully next time ;)

Of course this is not true ... then show me ONE picture where Bush is shown durring the war with at LEAST one other soldier on the pic prooving it!


if your talking about the vietnam war then of course bush wasnt in it. he was in the national guard at the time (before the war even started). the controversy was that this guy said he got bush into the guard on his father's insistance (didnt happen, prooven) and then forged papers to show bush had been AWOL and hadn't done his duty in the guard (didnt happen, prooven).

(I don't want to sth. like the movie when he was "ending" the war against iraq IN FRONT OF THE US COAST! pretending to be near to the battles)


heh, you expect the president to go to the front lines? thats like asking to be assinated. he doesnt even go out in public without an armored limo. I doubt he was "pretending" to be in iraq, but whats wrong with that even if he was...

bush has never been caught in a lie, kerry has. everything that bush said that people say is a lie kerry is also on record as saying... so in terms of honesty bush is relativley 100% more honest than kerry.


Damnit how blind can you possibly be?!??!?!

[CITE]Iraq HAS wapeons of mass destruction[/CITE]
[CITE]Saddam helped Osama Bin laden and is housing El Quaida[/CITE]
...


read that again and mabey you'll see what i meant ;)

bush:
[CITE]Iraq HAS wapeons of mass destruction[/CITE] (btw, we actually did find WMD's but nothing nuclear)
[CITE]Saddam helped Osama Bin laden and is housing El Quaida[/CITE]

kerry:
[CITE]Iraq HAS wapeons of mass destruction[/CITE]
[CITE]Saddam helped Osama Bin laden and is housing El Quaida[/CITE]

(not exact quotes but they did both say those things)

After I saw what bush did there is no doubt for me that kerry MUST be the better
choice. If he is not vote for nader


if you think that you obviously havent seen enough (or havent been paying attention).

I'm afraid your country would NOT have violated international treaties and have attacked a souvereign nation that DID no harm to them and DID not intend to.
I'm afraid you would NOT have murdered people that are not quilty for a crime they did not AND I'm afraid you would not have a thing like Guantanamo (spelling?) where you hold people in prisson violating their human rights, without any proof and without ANY trial.


ok... so you have objections to people being held without a trial and without proof and you object to murdering inocent people... yet you think we sould have let saddam stay in power? do i smell hipocracy? *swish* :roflol:

anyway, ive mentioned before-hand that the law that allows those things to happen (the Patriot Act) needs to be fixed, as it is it is unconstitutional. this is probably the only big issue i dissagree with bush on. however, let me remind you that only one senator voted aginst the Patriot Act and it was not John Kerry.

He might not have enchanted the people to believe things WITHOUT proof and to tollerate an attack on a souvereign state. He might have THOUGHT before acting.
He might have been RESPECTED IN THE WORLD


does the world respect fools and hipocrits... personal experiance suggests yes, as there are an overwhelming amount of them. in which case i dont mind not being respected by the world, i can have respect for myself and my judgement.

Bush is a man of action.

Hitler was too

He is not as charasmatic and well-spoken as Kerry, but I trust what he says.

hitler was also a great speaker. he influenced those that couldnt/wouldnt think for themselves.

Then I feel with your nation and will pray for all americans that think like you.
May God bless you and save your souls ... hold on ... he won't you declated a war
in his name ... but you can still hope


oh really... i guess the jews are doomed, didnt they wage war aginst all sorts of people back in the day. i seem to recall god himself directing there efforts. ^_^

more later, gtg. <_<

#117 2072

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 09:30 PM

OK, this discussion will lead nowhere, you have bad answers to everything. You are afraid to watch f911 (and now I'm 100% sure that you won't see it after what said Bob' sister - she has thought for you)

Maybe USA need a big crisis to understand what we are trying to tell you, to open their eyes and understand why some people on Earth have developed such a hatred against your country to decide to kill 3000 persons on 911. The problem if Bush is elected again is that the image of USA around the world won't have any chance to change at all...

#118 Bob Vila

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 10:21 PM

you have bad answers to everything.

and your average response "go watch f911" is the best possible answer for everything we have said?

Maybe USA need a big crisis to understand what we are trying to tell you, to open their eyes and understand why some people on Earth have developed such a hatred against your country to decide to kill 3000 persons on 911.

oh right, we need another terrorist attack to "open our eyes" give me a break. if the eiffel tower was taken down with a suicide bomber killing thousands of innocents, maybe you would see from our point of view.

#119 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 10:39 PM

OK, this discussion will lead nowhere, you have bad answers to everything. You are afraid to watch f911 (and now I'm 100% sure that you won't see it after what said Bob' sister - she has thought for you)


what? why? if you think reasoned answers are bad i can understand why you like kerry (or dislike bush). as for what bob's sister said she has merely confirmed what ive been saying for the past several months, and since she has watched the movie I'll bow to her superior knowlege of the subject untill i have a chance to confirm it for myself. remember, ive never said anything conclusive about f911, ive merly reported what ive heard others say about it (but reserved judgement).

Maybe USA need a big crisis to understand what we are trying to tell you, to open their eyes and understand why some people on Earth have developed such a hatred against your country to decide to kill 3000 persons on 911. The problem if Bush is elected again is that the image of USA around the world won't have any chance to change at all...

Im a nerd, i grew up not caring what others thought of me, wont change now. as long as i feel confident in my ability to make rational choices I wont blindly follow the views of others. for the x^99 time i do not think that bush is a saint, but i think kerry is a self-serving fool and worse, a politian. If you want me to think you are right you are going to have to prove it, or failing that induce reasonable doubt that i have made the right choice. and let me remind you, im an independant, not a republican.

also, to even think that it is somehow our fault that the trade centers were bombed is not just stupid, its willfully insane. i DARE you to justify it. The plan to bomb the towers began durring the clinton era, 8 years of the kind of person you want to run the US, if a democrat had been elected it still would have happend. yet you say:

to open their eyes and understand why some people on Earth have developed such a hatred against your country to decide to kill 3000 persons on 911. The problem if Bush is elected again is that the image of USA around the world won't have any chance to change at all...

the terrorists hate us because we are the only ones (apparently) with the backbone to fight them, you all would sit down and die. they hated us when our "world image" was idealic, and they hate us now, and they will hate us 100 years from now! they hate because they are to stupid to see the truth. they hate because they want what we have but dont want to work to get it. they hate because its easyer to blame someone else for your problems than it is to do something about them.

to blame the crime on the victim is insane, its like saying that its a woman's fault she was raped because she was wearing suggestive cloths. Open you eyes and shut your mouth, cause it seems you cant think while your talking. if you have any sense at all and any respect for human life you'll recind that statement and appologise.

next time, before you simply call my answers "bad," have some examples and have some sense.

:profanity:

I appologise if I offend, but i have been offended.

#120 Andy.Davies

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 11:52 PM

i dont say alot in this tread but i saw somthing:

[CITE]Iraq HAS wapeons of mass destruction[/CITE] (btw, we actually did find WMD's but nothing nuclear)


the weapons found were old, pre gulf war wernt they??




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