284 replies to this topic

[dscoshpe]

Its not over yet boyo.

- dscoshpe -

[2072]

Now that wasn't very nice, was it? Let me explain this to you.  My family and I are practicing Mormons.  As such, most Mormons choose not to watch rated R movies.

I didn't know that about Mormons and Bob said "I won't start with this one" what imply he will watch R-rated movies anyway...

I have seen F911 and do not agree with what you have said. Everyone has an opinion pal, and everyone is being very closed-minded and biased (God forbid, you or anyone else is biased!  As far as I know, everyone is biased, pal) about this.

Unfortunately you are right, this kind of debate is useless. There is no way to change someone opinion by showing them they are wrong, the only way is to lead your openent to make him understand he is wrong so he can accept it... That is what I learned in this thread.

  Now, are you going to sit there on your butt and argue more about those you don't like, or are you going to do something productive about it? 

The problem is that we -Europeans- don't understand why American people is so blind about Bush, it looks so obvious to us that Bush will be bad for everyone on Earth, he is (will be?) supporting the actual conflict that made you vote for him, but you can't see that.

Now, what productive things can you do?  Well, arguing here isn't going to change anyone's mind, we've all proved that.  So go write a book.  Start a website about how much you hate us, and maybe you'll get a bunch of people that agree with you.

AGAIN not "about how much you hate us" but "how much I hate Bush"... Will you ever understand that I'm here to help you? Else I won't be arguing here, I would just insult you.

Be active in your government.  Write to your leaders.  But don't you dare criticize my brother and call him prideful because he actually has the guts to stand up for his beliefs.

He doesn't want to see the opposite side, and I feel that's because he is afraid to realize that he/you were wrong... Maybe that's just a feeling but well that's what I feel about your brother.

"Be active in your government. Go write a book"

Don't worry about that I always wanted my life to contribute in the betterment of human kind but before acting I prefer to learn how humans work and that's what I'm doing.

Durch Kritik schlie?en Sie Ihr Gem?t; das gleiche Ding, das Sie Amerikaner von kritisieren.

translation:

By criticism you close your mind;  the same thing, which you criticize Americans of.

We are not criticising here, we've tried to show you (with many proofs) that Bush is bad for your country and for the world, that you didn't have to vote to elect Kerry but to eliminate Bush. We had the same problem in France during the last presidential election: we had the "choice" between a facist neonazi and our last president (who have many problems with justice)...

You in return criticized some of our proofs which, I agree, were debatable BUT you completely IGNORED other proofs acting like we said nothing... Proof that, indeed, were not debatable, that's sad .

That is true in your last post too, you commented what I said about your brother and forgot the rest... When I comment one of your post I try to comment on everything, I don't simply ignore something when I don't like it.

[Andy.Davies]

not officialy though, Kerry could still win it if a particular state (cant remember which one) goes with him.

oh and it aslo isnt offical till kerry says dont bother, you have won,(or if bush says it) (that i was told by an American who is staying at my uni)

[Chani]

The problem is that we -Europeans- don't understand why American people is so blind about Bush, it looks so obvious to us that Bush will be bad for everyone on Earth, he is (will be?) supporting the actual conflict that made you vote for him, but you can't see that.

First off, I did not vote for Bush in the first election. (You'll see that in an earlier post). I did not agree with his views on the environment. We didn't have Sept. 11 at that point to judge against. But I did vote for Bush in this election. Not becuase I am a blind American. Americans are not as blind as you may see us to be. You have shown me your ideas of "proofs" that should entice us to believe that Bush is bad for American and the world; I do not agree with those "proofs." You are correct about some of them, but mostly misinformed.

AGAIN not "about how much you hate us" but "how much I hate Bush"... Will you ever understand that I'm here to help you? Else I won't be arguing here, I would just insult you.
He doesn't want to see the opposite side, and I feel that's because he is afraid to realize that he/you were wrong... Maybe that's just a feeling but well that's what I feel about your brother.

That's actually how I feel about you and this discussion, 2072. That you won't see the possibility that you could be wrong. And I do not view some of your comments as something trying to "help us". Most of them do look like insults. Perhaps we have a huge misunderstanding.

We are not criticising here, we've tried to show you (with many proofs) that Bush is bad for your country and for the world, that you didn't have to vote to elect Kerry but to eliminate Bush.

But what other choice do I have? I don't want Kerry, and who in the world would trust Nader in our government? I was referring to your criticism of my brother not watching R-rated movies, not saying that you criticise us for being Americans.

And as for not replying to everything you say in your posts? I honestly don't feel that most if it is worth replying to. I pick my battles, and most of what you have to say I don't agree with, but I'm not going to change your mind, so why piss you off more? *shrugs* I will (if all goes well) hopefully be married soon, and had to decide who will protect my country the best for my children. Can you fault me for that?

[huhn_m]

@Chani:

Die schlechte Stimmung ist da weil wir alle so frustriet sind weil ihr Amerikaner nicht seht wie Bush wirklich ist

Update: My district isnt using the electronic machines this time, I used a simple black pen and paper ballot this year. Go figure.

Great! Learn from other countries and make REAL elections.

Btw. a new view:

Maybe it is better if bush wins. Statistics show that terrorists attack every 3-4 years (average). You'd have blamed kerry for doing nothing against terrorism if he wins. Now you will probably see that Bush doesn't protect you from terrorism.

I bet there'll be another terror attack, no matter wether bush or kerry are in office.

Btw. from what I learned of your election system you are NO democracy but some kind of oligarchy (spelling?). In your country a small group (the congress) votes for the most powerfull man. They are voting. Not the people and they can vote AS THEY WANT. Of course they are no true oligarchy because the minority is elected but it is doubtfull if you could describe this as democratic.

Since the discussion kerry/bush seems to be senseless:


Some questions to the americans.

What do you say to the electoral system. Do you think it is good?
Do you think it should be changed? What do you think is good/bad about it?
And what do you think about voting machines? Are they better then simply
peaces of paper where you have to make a cross? why / why not.

[CrimsonCasio]

ok, this is my last reply to this topic so im going to say everything I can think of.

first, ive tried really hard so far not to insult anyone or hurt any feelings, mostly because i have lots of respect for everyone here on most all matters except this one. therefor I appologise in advance if i loose my temper in the folowing paragraphs.

where to start...

I once wrote a paper on truth, what the meaning of truth was, is it relative, etc... it was for a class and i think everone else turned in a little 1 paragraph BS thing. I wrote about two pages and it took a few hours. I put some serious thought into it if you cant tell. To claim I am afraid of the truth is such an obsurdity I can barely stand it, but you have no reason to know that particular aspect of me so i forgive you... but let me illusidate, I am obsessive in my pursuit of the truth, every humanities and psycology teacher ive had has refered to me as a philosopher (which, btw, means "lover of knowlege"), and it describes me aptly. I have always had in insatiable desire to know, it didnt matter how trivial the knowlege was, i had to know it. you cant imagine how hard it is for me when i know someone has a secret (even if it doesnt relate to me) and wont tell me... its excruciating. when my parents were getting devorced I MADE them tell me everything that was going, every word spoken, every action for good or ill. i cared less about the result than i did in who was doing what. in the course of this inquisition i discovered that my mother had been having an affair, yet I do not regret pressuring my dad to tell me; i saw my parents reduced to levels that could be considered barbaric, i made them tell me in detail and spared no dirty trick to get them to talk, i even resorted to spying and occasionally left my pocket PC running with its recorder on near their room... im sure the police would have been impressed with my techniques. I did all this because I CANNOT STAND to not know the truth, i never rest untill I do. you can accuse me of many things, but under no circumstances my you ever accuse me of fearing the truth, I live by the truth and nothing else; if anyone fears the truth it is those that would accuse me of such a trait. Perhaps you should think on that.

Ive said this before, but its been conveniantly ignored: I started out planning to vote for kerry for this election, before i started looking into things... in my paper about truth i wrote this: "The truth is unchanging, never does it waver or bend as we might say; it is the perception of man that wavers, it is perception that distorts the meaning of the truth, yet while perception wavers the truth remains unchanged." My perception was distorted by a lack of knowlege, i litterally couldnt interperate what i was seening any hearing... As i studied (yes studied, i had a political science class) I learned more and more things about kerry i didnt like, and i shoudnt need to tell any of you that I have a nearly perfect memory. things added up and kerry didnt.

there are a great many factors to consider this election, not the least of which is the character of the person that will be running the USA. I personally feel that the character of a person is the most important thing to consider when judging them, ive done this with both candidates and i belive john kerry has none. Bush has character, he has the strength of character to get things done, and things most certinly need to be done. propaganda, lies, and general contempt... all have been used aginst bush in this election to an unheard of degree (and if you dont believe it your a fool)

I started writing this post 2 days ago, and i was going to try to convince you one last time that bush is better for the US and the world, but now it doesnt matter. I was litterally woken up this morning by the words "President bush wins the election." by the time I actually got up I had heard "John kerry conceads the presidency", im glad he did, but im still worried that some of his supporters might not be so gracious.

so instead im going to explain some other things:

I too used only simple paper and a marker to vote, as did my parents last year. there were no machines in site. Im glad about that, since i think voting machines are way to insecure at the current time... there's just way to much that can be done to influence them.

I am dissapointed in all of you, you have been blinded by some of the most stupid and dispicable people in this country and others, and in the next 4 years you'll come to see that. now that bush no longer needs to worry about an election he'll be able to get things done without worrying about politics, now he may verey well go after those other dictators you've mentioned. I personally hope he calls out the UN, which has been lying through its collective teeth since all this started. are you guys even aware that france and germany had business deals with sadam and thats why you didnt participate in the war? did you know evidence has been found that russia may have moved sadams weapons to Seria right before the war? why you ask, cause of who made them (i'll let you figgur that out). You think your so much better than us, yet you've been funding the enemies of life and freedom for years, in a way the deaths and suppression of thousands is on your shoulders, and you dont even know it. you sit and lissen to appeasers like moore and the mass media (have you ever listend to CNN and then CNN international? its totally diffrent news). and you refuse to even think about our sources, info, or opinions as anything but stupid and false. you use the "you havent read ours so i dont need to read yours", well i have read yours, not all of it, but ive tried. and i started out on your side remember. did you even listen to the shaw hannity show, i posted a link to a site where its streamed, did you even try it? i think not. all you'll listen to is drivle.

here's that link again for you: http://www.hannity.c...nt=/live_stream

sigh...

Btw. from what I learned of your election system you are NO democracy but some kind of oligarchy (spelling?). In your country a small group (the congress) votes for the most powerfull man. They are voting. Not the people and they can vote AS THEY WANT. Of course they are no true oligarchy because the minority is elected but it is doubtfull if you could describe this as democratic.

carefull, your ignorance is showing.

our system is a representative democracy, meaning that we elect the people that elect the president. if we dont like them we dont elect them. and except for one or two times the person elected was the person that got the popular votes. the other times the system worked exactly as intened, it kept people from electing the wrong person (one guy tried to bribe people to vote for him, was a long time ago, he stood at the voting booths with bottles of wine and game them to people voting for him... he won the popular election but the electoral college shot him down). and btw, i was wrong about the 2000 election, it wasnt the electoral college that got bush in, it was the supream court. (they ended the lawsuit that the democrats were doing, bush had the votes all along but the democrats kept trying to change it, the court just said "Stop counting") sorry to pop your bubble.

I didn't know that about Mormons and Bob said "I won't start with this one" what imply he will watch R-rated movies anyway...

actually it doesnt... mabey its an american phrase but thats not what it means. it means he has no intention to watch R rated movies.

The problem is that we -Europeans- don't understand why American people is so blind about Bush, it looks so obvious to us that Bush will be bad for everyone on Earth, he is (will be?) supporting the actual conflict that made you vote for him, but you can't see that.

thats so foolish... why do you even say that when its so obviously wrong... we'er electing bush cause we dont want to roll over and die, i dont particuarlly care if thats your prefered method of existance (history shows it is), but i choose to fight aginst injustice, not make the injust happy.

AGAIN not "about how much you hate us" but "how much I hate Bush"... Will you ever understand that I'm here to help you? Else I won't be arguing here, I would just insult you.

and your hate blinds you. let it go and think for once.

Some stupid quotes from rush limbaugh taken on his website: http://www.rushlimba...otes.guest.html

did i not just say in my last post that i think limbaugh is on the same level as MM, what do you think thats gona prove... my point mabey?


one last thing, i want to point out cause its so increadably stupid... Bush's grandfather was hitlers banker... so what? my grandfather could have been a mass murderer, would that make me as bad as a mass murderer? no, of course not. and like being hitlers banker is bad, im sure he was alot of other peoples banker's as well. also left out of that statement is a time value, because hitler wasnt always the head of the Nazi party. if some of huhn's ansestors were Nazi's would i call him evil? by your logic yes. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY FOR GOD'S SAKE!



anyway, im though now. thats all there is and the election is over anyway. i dont even have to worry about hillary clinton for a few years. in the mean time you can think on your oppinions and mabey even get some info form a source other than your little circle of MM and the media (something you accuse bush of). good luck to you all.

edit: lol... a democrat just called kerry "borderline french"

[huhn_m]

I have not yet read crimsons comment. I'll read it and then either comment on it or not.

Just so much.

The americans have made their decission, they got the president they elected, they got the president they deserve. WITH ALL consequences.

If you think this'll be ok for you, sure ... it is your president.

I just can assure you of one thing. I can assure you that Germany will NOT in any military way help your nation in Iraq under this president. While there might have been a chance under bush I can definately tell you that there will not be one under Bush. I and a lot of other Germans will hidner this by the simply fact that we prevent Schr?der from beeing reelect if he does steps to send our army to iraq. The people that don't like Bush and that were against this war ar SO many that he will think more then twice before doing steps in this direction.

You coose to fight alone. Now live with it. Maybe Iceland will help you out in iraq.

I wish you ever the best with this president and, since I really like the people arround in this forum I'd recommend you to avoid crouded places.

The sad thing is that I already know we'll see another war, as well as another terror attack on your country. While the first might have been prevented by another president the second is predetermind and YOUR OWN fault by the ploitics youove done in the world.

A president who calls himself a "New cristian" and is elected by 77% of 40 Million of these "christians". These "christians" maybe should think about the values they follow. If they are War. If they are Believe over Life. Then I think they do not deserve to be called christians.

Hope all of the americans who voted for Bush get what they deserve and what we expected to come.

Thats it.

[huhn_m]

I feel sorry for your crimson if this is your opinion I can't help you.

Maybe our understanding of values, justice and truth is just too different.
I think such discussion on an international base are senseless. You close
your eyes (as we might close ours from time to time too). How do you know the "truth" is true? What sources do you trust? Do you trust your heart? Do you believe in everyones free opinion?

If you really think we hate america and don't belive us though we say the contrary I can't help you. But our sight of the world is not the black & white one your culture offers. We see if not in color then we do at least see in shades of gray and WE DO DIFFER and we see that you can not all americans call republicans and conservative only because you have such a president.

I'll remind you about the "we don't want to roll over and die" statement as soon as the next terror attack happens.

that i think limbaugh is on the same level as MM, what do you think thats gona prove... my point mabey?

Not it does not. This is what I call irrational. This is as If I say Bush is as Bad has Hittler and then proove that Hitler was bad and say so is Bush. It's just stupid.

I agree with you on the Nazi thing. It is neither just nor reasonable (sorry 2072)

And I don't rely only on Bush and German TV/News-Media! I've informed myself out of other sources about the US connections to iraq when I made a 12 page essay about the history of iraq, its wars, and the american relations in this wars and with the people concerned with it. If anybody is interrested and does speak german I can mail it (it has the sources listed).

[Marco]

Bush: 254 votes
Kerry: 252 votes

New Mexico, Iowa and Ihio not counted yet, but Kerry gave up hope for presidency already...

Poor America ...
A Sad day also for the whole world

Btw: some curses rose at the stock exchanges this morning: THAT OF THE ARMS COMPANIES!

Yeah, if you want to have your money save, invest into arms industry - stocks now, your money currently will REALLY be save there!

[CrimsonCasio]

ok, i said that was my last post in this topic, but i wanted to ask marco where he got those figures... my screen shows Bush 274, Kerry 242...

[Marco]

???

Got from www.zdf.de; seem not to be the newest data, but:

what does this matter? Bush won.

[CrimsonCasio]

indeed, i just wondered why you had those figgures, it seemed odd.

[huhn_m]

it is not old since Ohio is oficially counted out in 11 days first.

[Marco]

www.t-online.de shows: Kerry 252 (Bush 274)

[Chani]

And I don't rely only on Bush and German TV/News-Media! I've informed myself out of other sources about the US connections to iraq when I made a 12 page essay about the history of iraq, its wars, and the american relations in this wars and with the people concerned with it. If anybody is interrested and does speak german I can mail it (it has the sources listed).

Huhn, I'd be interested in it, just to see what it says. I can translate (most!) of the German. You'll find my email address in my profile.

[2072]

I am dissapointed in all of you, you have been blinded by some of the most stupid and dispicable people in this country and others, and in the next 4 years you'll come to see that.

I deeply hope you are right

are you guys even aware that france and germany had business deals with sadam and thats why you didnt participate in the war?

No that is certainly not why we didn't participate in the war, sorry to disppoint you. I won't reppeat myself.

(have you ever listend to CNN and then CNN international? its totally diffrent news).

I only have CNN international.

I was wrong about the 2000 election, it wasnt the electoral college that got bush in, it was the supream court.

in deed, and you forgot to mention that the supream court was republican at majority...

Anyway the republicans have majority in all government structures now... The democrats are too weak.

I CANNOT STAND to not know the truth, i never rest untill I do. you can accuse me of many things, but under no circumstances my you ever accuse me of fearing the truth, I live by the truth and nothing else; if anyone fears the truth it is those that would accuse me of such a trait. Perhaps you should think on that.

So explain me why you don't want to wath F911 because I don't understand...

You know I doubt everyday about me, I often ask myself: "And if they were right after all?" Then I start thinking about what made me hate Bush in the first place:

- was it the way he thought about capital executions and all the people 'he killed' as governor of Texas (maybe innocents)?
- was it his support for weapons?
- was it because of his stupid cowboy look and vocabulary that shoot before thinking?
- was it because he succeded thanks to his father and nothing else?
- was it the way his party suppressed black people from electoral lists?
- was it his views on the environment?
- was it the way he 'worked' before 911 (always in vacations)?
- was it the way he found reasons to make the war in Iraq (wmd, terrorists threats) and had no proof?
- was it the way he ignored other countries objections about the reasons of this war?
- was it the fact that he doesn't know what WAR really is and succeded to have a safe cover during Vietnam?
- was it the way he thinks about France because we don't say always yes and so treat us as being traitors?
- was it the strange $ relations he had with the Saoudies? (that you've never commented btw)
- was it the way he uses God to justify his actions? And so to make all those christian extremists to support him?
- was it the way he built and maintained a climate of fear in america after 9/11?
- was it the fact that Bush have nothing else to offer to the world than violence and hatred?
- was it.... I'll complete this list later.

After reminding all those things I regain trust in my beliefs again... Sorry if those thoughts mean nothing to you.

one last thing, i want to point out cause its so increadably stupid... Bush's grandfather was hitlers banker... so what? my grandfather could have been a mass murderer, would that make me as bad as a mass murderer? no, of course not. and like being hitlers banker is bad, im sure he was alot of other peoples banker's as well. also left out of that statement is a time value, because hitler wasnt always the head of the Nazi party. if some of huhn's ansestors were Nazi's would i call him evil? by your logic yes. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY FOR GOD'S SAKE!

Do you think I'm that stupid? I would act like limbaugh if I thought this way... If I said that it was just to show you that Bush family have always been more interested in profit than in justice or moral! Bush Grand father and Great grand father remained hitler's banker till 1942, so they knew who was hitler!
It seems that noone understands me here you always think I'm an evil bastard. Try to think I'm a friend telling you something...

The problem is that we -Europeans- don't understand why American people is so blind about Bush, it looks so obvious to us that Bush will be bad for everyone on Earth, he is (will be?) supporting the actual conflict that made you vote for him, but you can't see that.

thats so foolish... why do you even say that when its so obviously wrong... we'er electing bush cause we dont want to roll over and die, i dont particuarlly care if thats your prefered method of existance (history shows it is), but i choose to fight aginst injustice, not make the injust happy.

Thank you for that insult comming from the deep of your heart, I won't forget.

You really don't understand

Harlan Ellison is right: "The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity."

[2072]

Some 'funny' photos I found in the thread in reaction to Bush re-election on the French forum:

[CrimsonCasio]

sigh... i really dont want to continue this... im not going to argue bush good/bad anymore, its far to tiring and frustrating and its to much trouble to try to be nice while arguing.

i will say this, by the time hitler came to power you simply didnt say "i dont want to work for you" or you were hung with paino wire... huhn will confirm this i suspect. this line of arguemt simply just is not valid, and if you wont admit that it just poves you are not listening to anything i say.

in deed, and you forgot to mention that the supream court was republican at majority...

you dont seem to understand, the supream court simply said "Stop recounting and take whatever you have right now", if they hadn't we would still be recounting. When i asked my dad about this he said: "The only people that though Gore won were the people that wouldnt have believed anything else." Bush did actually win the electoral college, but not the popular vote. this time he one both, and by the largest margin in history.

Thank you for that insult comming from the deep of your heart, I won't forget.

prove me wrong and i'll apologise... but the last time i can remember france standing up for its values was when Charles Martel drove the muslims out of europe. didnt you all abondon Paris to the Nazi's do keep it from being distroyed? if paris were an american city we would have turned it into a regular stalingrad, nobody would have cared if historical monuments were distroyed... thats the diffrences in our culture. also, part of what made that foolish was that bush was elected before the terrorist attack, so: "he is (will be?) supporting the actual conflict that made you vote for him" if taken as the 2000 election doesnt make sense. if taken as the 2004 election it also doesnt make sense, except for a diffrent reason: if we dont bring war to the terrorists it will never end, they have been at war with us for years, but bush will bring it to them, and eventually be able to end it. with kerry it likely would be going on past any of our lifetimes. any other response but taking the war to the enemy is appeasment, and we know that doesnt work... im sad to see europe doesnt seem to have learned from history.

and i dont think your evil or stupid, just unwilling to listen and uninformed. thats what really makes this frustrating and why i dont want to continue it. (its moot anyway)

now, if you want to comment on bush's decisions on the upcomming term I'm game for that, but nothing we've been arguing matters any more and its obvious none of us are getting anywere. (i was suprised as hell when huhn agreed with me about bush's grandfather, i told bob yesterday that i though huhn was making a worse argument than you but now i think he has some hope, at least now i know he will listen to reason and that makes me more interested in what he has to say)

btw, about f911 i said earlyer im having some "technical" problems with it, and you know very well why i cant go into detail about them.

[2072]

i will say this, by the time hitler came to power you simply didnt say "i dont want to work for you" or you were hung with paino wire... huhn will confirm this i suspect. this line of arguemt simply just is not valid, and if you wont admit that it just poves you are not listening to anything i say.

Sure but Bush family wasn't in Germany... Hitler couldn't kill them, they had the choice to refuse to help such a man... I don't get your point here.

http://www.fromthewi...01_carlyle.html

but the last time i can remember france standing up for its values was when Charles Martel drove the muslims out of europe.

Well we stand for our values when we refused the war in Iraq... You should read France history.

didnt you all abondon Paris to the Nazi's do keep it from being distroyed? if paris were an american city we would have turned it into a regular stalingrad, nobody would have cared if historical monuments were distroyed... thats the diffrences in our culture.

Let Paris to the nazi for sometime instead of being destroyed and all its inhabitant killed... Well I guess it was a good choice wasn't it? Our pride didn't take advantage on our common sense. What would had been changed if we had destroyed Paris? Btw, did you ever heard anything about French resistance?
Have you ever been to Paris?

"nobody would have cared if historical monuments were distroyed... thats the diffrences in our culture."

Indeed, we do have an ancient history which we care about, your country only have ~400 years old (counting the first North America settler in 1607) and no so many monuments. That is the main difference that oppose you to the rest of the world, USA is still a child learning from his mistakes...

bush was elected before the terrorist attack, so: "he is (will be?) supporting the actual conflict that made you vote for him" if taken as the 2000 election doesnt make sense. if taken as the 2004 election it also doesnt make sense, except for a diffrent reason: if we dont bring war to the terrorists it will never end, they have been at war with us for years, but bush will bring it to them

Changing the way you treat other countries would made a big difference you know. Terrorists cannot be defeated by violence, it's like trying to extinguish a fire with napalm! When oil wells are in fire you have to use explosives AND water, Bush only knows explosives, so it can't work. If "appeasement" isn't working pure violence won't. Kerry would have made a difference here.

With Bush the war on terror will never end, within the next 4 years he'll continue to make Americans live in fear and hatred then Jeff Bush will be elected and that'll continue...

btw, about f911 i said earlyer im having some "technical" problems with it, and you know very well why i cant go into detail about them.

You know that I'll be glad to help you with those problems... PM me.

[CrimsonCasio]

ok, i didnt know they wernt in germany, from that article it makes it seem like P. Bush was guilty as hell, but like I said before, sins of the father... and im sure (becuse of the nature of such things) that i could find 10 pages "proving" that its a compleat lie... ive said that before. anyway, it doesnt really matter.

Well we stand for our values when we refused the war in Iraq... You should read France history.

there's evidence that you (your government) stayed out of the war for money reasons, but you dont believe that of course. again, it really doesnt matter.

actually i do know quite a bit about the french resistance (war literature is a favorite genre of mine), but it took you an awful long time to get there and if you hadnt tried to appease hitler in the first place it probably wouldnt have been that bad (that goes for all of europe). Nobody wants war, but you have to know when its needed.

i admit that we dont go back as far as you do, but seriously, if paris (and everything in it) were in america, and it was being invaded, we wouldnt abondon it to keep it from being destroyed... i understand why you did, but its just a diffrent mentality here, if somebody comes into your home you dont just kick them out, you follow them down the street with bat the whole way back to theres and you trash their mailbox... (thats a metaphore btw)

Changing the way you treat other countries would made a big difference you know.

oh, well, we sort of take offence to other countries tring to tell us what to do... its a little thing called "Sovrenity" and i think you'd be pissed if we tried to violate yours too.

and the only way to defete terrorisim is though violence, its the only thing people like that understand. reason doesnt work, kindness doesnt work, nothing works but anhiliation. we've been trying a "middle of the road" approch for years, and we got the 9/11 attack for our trouble.

and by the way, its Jeb Bush, not Jeff (and of all the bushes he's probably the smartest), out of principal i probably wouldnt vote for him though, unless his opponent was hillary clinton. (dont get me wrong, ive always though a woman president would be great, but anybody but her...)

anyway, this time im honestly done, i dont care if there are anymore replys, i wont answer them... the point is moot and its time to move on. like i said though, im willing to discuss any future things by bush or others, but the past is pointless now.

[huhn_m]

1)Bushs gradfather was not in germany but I think the argument is sensless since it porrves noting. People CAN change. (I hope)

2)You think Iraq has no right for "Sovrenity"?

3) We have not learned from history? WE HAVE and we learned that it is not good to attack souvereign countries.

4)

"If you appeased Hitler in the first place"

So we learned we are trying to appease a country that wants to invade souvereign countries. Maybe we should really stop appeasing and go to war?

[2072]

1)Bushs gradfather was not in germany but I think the argument is sensless since it porrves noting. People CAN change. (I hope)

You are right, peole can change but from what I know, Bush family always kept their "values". They do business with anyone, even Hitler or the Ladden family.

i could find 10 pages "proving" that its a compleat lie... ive said that before.

Well I had difficulties to admit that, I thought it was a lie! So I've tripple checked, and from what I read it's proven history.
I'm going to find those pages myself

there's evidence that you (your government) stayed out of the war for money reasons, but you dont believe that of course. again, it really doesnt matter.

Could you post some links please? I would be interested to know more about it. Thanks by advance.

A very objective important link that you MUST read: http://www.globalsec...9/wwwh40918.htm

Someone made a very objective post about money and war in Iraq, even your country isn't gulty of "war for oil":

http://www.flipcode....read_show=21941

i admit that we dont go back as far as you do, but seriously, if paris (and everything in it) were in america, and it was being invaded, we wouldnt abondon it to keep it from being destroyed... i understand why you did, but its just a diffrent mentality

Yes it is, we think of the consequences of our actions (what good it makes, what bad it makes) before acting. Destroying Paris was useless, it won't have stopped the nazis and would have destroyed a big part of our culture for nothing but pride of not letting the nazi took it... Can't you agree with that? I really don't understand.

and the only way to defete terrorisim is though violence, its the only thing people like that understand. reason doesnt work, kindness doesnt work, nothing works but anhiliation.

You are right about one point: there is no way to make terrorists understands our values, they are doomed, so the only solution is to eliminate them. Sure. But what, in the first place, made those human beeings to become terrorist? If you don't understand that, there always will be terrorists to eliminate. I already said it: what makes a terrorist is mostly hatred and stupidity, Bush spread those "values" all around him...

anyway, this time im honestly done, i dont care if there are anymore replys, i wont answer them... the point is moot and its time to move on. like i said though, im willing to discuss any future things by bush or others, but the past is pointless now.

Well you still don't agree that Bush cannot be trusted, since he is your president for "4 more years" it's present not past.

I really want to understand your views, so please explain me why I say is wrong.

[Bob Vila]

i think that this will be my last post too i tire of the bickering and nobody is changing their minds (nobody is opening them either ) but i do have this to add...
2072, you criticize me for not replying to every single thing that you post. maybe it's just me, but you've done the same. and its not because i do not want to post something about it, maybe its cause i have a life. i dont spend every waking moment online, and i have gone many times without lunch to argue with you guys. i dont have a lot of time to sit around on my butt and do nothing, that is why i dont reply to everything that you've said. i was not ignoring you.

The fact is that we have so many proofs from so many different people, to read books by two biased persons seems to be useless to us, there is no way they could change our mind.

isnt MM biased? and there isnt only two consevative book writers out there i hope you know. and they have facts too. but the real reason i quoted you on this is because it totally is a flip-flop( ) of this post of yours right here.

I really want to understand your views, so please explain me why I say is wrong.

which is still kinda dumb because i dont remember you making any comments on any of the links i posted (remember the clinton and democrat quotes? maybe the 59 deciets in f 9/11?) if you want to understand what our views are, read our links, read our posts, and most importantly, respect our views. (you guys were the ones to start throwing insults remember).

And Iraq wasn't a threat to USA.

you get mad at the US for not listening to the UN, but you dont listen to them your self, the UN guy even said that hussien had the means, and the motives. he was a threat, not only to us, but to isreal, and his own people for crying out loud. you care if an american bomb goes off target and kills a few civilians, but you sure dont seem to care if saddam has mass graves of his own people that he has shot, tortured and raped? dosent make a whole lot of sense to me.

not the sanctions on him but on his people so they can have a better life that's slightly different...

your not really that naive are you? you know full well that the sactions being lifted and you trading straght out for iraqi oil will only better saddams family.

USA are part of the UN you know...

i did know that actually. and for 8 years we had a lame-o president who was an appeaser. that is why saddam was not removed from power earlier.

And I don't think Bush made any progress in the war on terror

catching 75% of al-queda isnt progress? hmm, what progress-meter are you using?

By the way, you didn't answered to my question: did you ever see/read any MM film/book?

actually i have. its called Canadian Bacon, you might get a kick out of watching it, its kinda funny. and i have listened to about 20 minutes of him talking. have you ever listened to or read a book by hannity?

We do not defend people like Bush.

but you do defend people like saddam?

I did not watch a lot of things against MM, bud I did read your links, and I admit that MM isn't right about several little things and that he used easy means in F911 (Mother crying, Iraqi children mutilated by american bombs, etc...) but he had to: is goal is to convince not to proove he is right, most of non-american already knew the most part of F911. The problem is that Bush isn't a good president and never will and that anyone else would be a better one (except Bush & Co. of course).

he has to lie to convince people? "That kind of quotes doesn't encourage me to read his books... :/"
here is something i heard on sirus radio last weekend, its written by a very liberal democrat woman...

As a Democrat and a pro-choice feminist, it?s time for me to explain why I support the president, and why other thoughtful Democrats should join me in doing so.

I can?t tell you how many e-mails I?ve received from other Democrats either condemning me for not toeing the line, while others write who are genuinely curious, after all the hate-mongering and demonizing of Republicans and the president specifically, they hope I can ease their fears about what their inclination to vote for the president means about them.

The simple answer? It means you?re a confident liberal, a thoughtful person who realizes that game of party loyalty takes a back seat to the safety of your family and this nation.
It also means you take the slogans of ?choice? and ?radical individualism? seriously. Isn?t it ironic that there?s nothing more radically individual these days than a liberal who doesn?t conform?

For me, Authentic Feminism is rooted in making it possible for people to make the choices that best suit them.

If you have recognized the weakness of John Kerry, and know in your heart a vote for the president is the right thing to do, join me and do it! It can be done with a clear conscience as you embrace the radical individual inside you that attracted you to liberal causes in the first place.

Because some things simply transcend party lines, when in front of that Early Voting touch screen, I stood there as an American first, and voted for George W. Bush. This nation, our lives, and the lives our children require nothing less.

I explain to detractors and supporters alike that President Bush is the man who will keep this nation safest.

The president and I hold dramatically divergent views on a number of social issues of importance to me, and yet for the 3,000 people who died on September 11th, abortion rights and same-sex civil unions mean absolutely nothing to them now.

These issues, while important to me and ones on which I will continue to speak out about, are luxuries in the face of a world war where the enemy is a stateless savage who hunts children and cuts off people?s heads.

We have a responsibility to leave this nation as great as it is to the next generation.

We all know, and must reflect on, the fact that the joy we have in our lives today is due to the sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of other Americans who died fighting for this country. Those soldiers did not die because they were promised 72 virgins in the afterlife, they fought not for themselves ? they died in the most noble of American causes ? so future generations ? us ? could live in freedom.

I do not take that action for granted, and I have learned that generosity of spirit and commitment to freedom is inherent in each of us, and a duty we cannot shirk.

Those of you with children have a more immediate concern, which is the literal safety of the light of your life.

That little face looks up at you as you tuck her in, and sleeps gently knowing that Mommy and Daddy are there.

That same face stares at you in the morning, with a heart full of hope, limited only by her imagination because you confront, for her, the harsh realities of every day. And these days it?s not just about making a living, it?s about the Beslan school massacre, it?s a new al-Qaida tape threatening Americans at home, it?s about war and mad savages who have specifically targeted children.

I voted for President Bush because having a Pacifist Internationalist in the White House will only embolden those who salivate at the sight of our blood.

Having a man in the White House who stands for nothing will only excite Islamic Fascists who revel in torture and the cutting off of heads. I do not want a man in the White House who is so cold, when asked by a New York Times reporter how September 11th changed him, answers ?It didn?t change me much at all.?

While I know a Bush presidency makes my work as a feminist more complicated and demanding, I will love and be grateful for every day I have the luxury of working on those issues. And frankly, it?s not necessarily a bad thing to have a president who encourages social activism on issues.

Liberals make the mistake of thinking a Democrat president is indeed Daddy, who can be trusted in all things. Apathy soon follows that false comfort.

Bill Clinton showed us the decline of the Democratic Party into a gang spouting slogans to make women, gays and blacks feel Daddy was in the house, to our grave regret. What did we get? A sexual compulsive who put Monica Lewinsky on her knees instead of cutting bin Laden off at his.

Yes, there were plenty of Democrats, feminists, gays and blacks in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and on those fateful flights. I?m sure you would agree that in their last moments their literal lives were more important to them than party affiliation.

I want a president who will be strongest making sure tomorrow comes, that this nation not just survives, but emerges from this war like the others we have fought, in a world that has been transformed for the better. I want a president who understands this is war, not a ?nuisance.?

I know George Bush has made many in the world angry, and frankly, I am dismayed at the hard feelings. A recent poll of Europeans revealed their general belief that Bush has made the world a more dangerous place.

Upon hearing that, I remind myself of the time President Reagan increased arms production and installed more Pershing Missiles in Europe as we faced down the Soviet Union.

President Reagan grappled with European polls, anger and resentment, all of which evaporated when the Soviet regime collapsed.

Yes, they hated Reagan, but he plodded on, never swayed by those polls or made doubtful by others? hatred. His resolve freed Europe from the shadow of a bear which had no mercy and the blood of tens of millions on its paws.

As a man of faith with a love of this country, Reagan stayed the course, and did what he knew had to be done. He was a leader, and I?m proud to say, one that only America could deliver.

Today, President Bush faces the same polls, the same anger, and the same resentment as he, too, recognizes and engages a rabid enemy of civilization, Islamo-Fascists.

Europeans felt Reagan was leading them to Armageddon, as they now insist Bush is doing. We can?t know what it?s like for Europeans to see such a young nation doing so many things, but one thing Europe will find, again, is that while we may be wild, young and even cowboys on occasion, we have a pretty good track record of making the world a safer and better place.

With George W. Bush at the helm, this time will be no different.

I voted for President Bush because he has freed 50 million people, 25 million of which are women and girls. The feminist establishment, in a shameful exhibit of their hypocrisy, has ignored that fact.


As a feminist, I thank the president with my vote, in solidarity with the millions of Afghan and Iraqi women who now, courtesy of the president and our astounding military, finally have hope, liberty and freedom.

Like all of our presidents, George W. Bush is quintessentially an American. He?s a Cowboy. A Texan. He will never be mistaken for a Frenchman. He?s a Yalie. He?s a man of faith, a husband and father. He?s a man who has fought with and overcome addiction. He?s a man of strength and character.

And while he is also wrong on some issues, if I have to work harder on social issues, I want it to be against a man whom I can admire, who I know, despite our disagreements, honors me in his work to keep this nation free and great.

For those of you who are Democrats and liberals ? and I know through my years as a leader in left wing causes, including feminist and gay activism ? we all have gone through a sort of conditioning that makes dissent or difference a frightening prospect.


Republicans and conservatives have been decidedly demonized in your circle?perhaps by your own friends and family.

Let me tell you this - voting for the President does not change who you are or what you stand for. I stand for the classical liberal concepts of personal liberty and individualism, and have spent a great deal of my adult life working for those causes. I have found that ?Choice? and ?Individualism? are only slogans if you never act on them. Sometimes being yourself means straying from the expected, standing apart from your crowd.

November 2nd is a good a day to be a Democrat who?s an American first.

and here is a map from both the 2000 and 2004 elections.
2004-

2000-


cya in other threads

[huhn_m]

isnt MM biased?

We showed you other reliable ressources and 2072 even said that we o NOT only rely on F911 and the Moore books ... LISTEN GUY!!!

maybe the 59 deciets in f 9/11?)

You are lying ... thats plain ... I showed you a link with factual backup for F911 to this link ...

the UN guy even said that hussien had the means, and the motives

Show me the quote or a link to a reliable ressource (not forum / site but Newspaper site / news netqwork site ...). I watched the debate and he said that Iraq had no cabability to build WMD and he even said that your proofs were wrong and he unvailed your lie with the WMD from syria.

your not really that naive are you? you know full well that the sactions being lifted and you trading straght out for iraqi oil will only better saddams family.

but I'd have also bettered the live of the civil peopl of iraq. If you wanted better lives for them you should have helped there. Btw. Crimson mentioned that if the Rich ones get money it floats back to the people (remember the discussion about the military in your country getting to much money?). If you believed in this you could also have believed in the thing I just said. The bosses of Enron are the American BinLaden family

catching 75% of al-queda isnt progress

no, creating 10 times as many new terrorsits is no progress.

did know that actually. and for 8 years we had a lame-o president who was an appeaser. that is why saddam was not removed from power earlier.

Thats sad :shakehad: Bushs father had the chance to remove him. Not clinton. ?Sadam was (quite) peacefull during the clinton time.

but you do defend people like saddam?

No. we defend the right of souvereignity and freedom.

(w?ll read your radio cite later ..) have to go ... cu huhn

[Bob Vila]

i'll go back on my word this last time...

but I'd have also bettered the live of the civil peopl of iraq. If you wanted better lives for them you should have helped there. Btw. Crimson mentioned that if the Rich ones get money it floats back to the people (remember the discussion about the military in your country getting to much money?). If you believed in this you could also have believed in the thing I just said. The bosses of Enron are the American BinLaden family

but if you'll remember, you didnt believe crimson. and i think that he was talking about democracy anyways, not depotism.

You are lying ... thats plain ... I showed you a link with factual backup for F911 to this link ...

you didnt even read it! how can you tell if it is a lie or not. besides, he cites MM's site many times (as well as CNN, NBC, and many others) and if you still think that it is a lie... then you are calling MM a liar

We showed you other reliable ressources and 2072 even said that we o NOT only rely on F911 and the Moore books ... LISTEN GUY!!!

no, you listen. i wouldnt exactly call all his sites reliable, i mean, if i had posted similar sites, you would say they were lies... (btw, most were not news network sites, so if i can't post anything but that, how come you get away with it?)
btw, you still didnt answer when i asked if MM was biased. are you ignoring me??? ()

Show me the quote or a link to a reliable ressource (not forum / site but Newspaper site / news netqwork site ...). I watched the debate and he said that Iraq had no cabability to build WMD and he even said that your proofs were wrong and he unvailed your lie with the WMD from syria.

i will try and find one later, i am at work now :-\ i remember it was fairly recent though

No. we defend the right of souvereignity and freedom.

yet you despize all those who are risking thier lives so that those people may have freedom
btw, i have never seen the french defend anything (no offense intended)

[2072]

2072, you criticize me for not replying to every single thing that you post. maybe it's just me, but you've done the same. and its not because i do not want to post something about it, maybe its cause i have a life.

nope that's a wrong excuse, youd didn't reply everytime I prooved you were wrong. Then you let the discussion continue for some time and you come back again, arguing about something else or about the same thing forgetting what was said.

i dont have a lot of time to sit around on my butt and do nothing, that is why i dont reply to everything

You are not doing nothing, you are learning to express your opinions.

isnt MM biased? and there isnt only two consevative book writers out there i hope you know.

Yes MM is biased, he as an opinion he is defending, you cannot defend anything by being unbiased or neutral.

About conservative books, I already told you I don't share the opinions of conservative people so I cannot agree with them in anyway. To be a conservative is to be against man kind evolution, to me those people are stupid from the begining (it's just my opinion).

(you guys were the ones to start throwing insults remember).

I've read the thread again till the first insult, and actually it's not us... The first insult came from Crimson after the misunderstanding of one of my posts.

link to the post: http://www.casiocalc...indpost&p=24768

Now here is a link of one of my best post that made all of you to shut up for a while (I was refering to this post when I say that you're ignoring me):

http://www.casiocalc...indpost&p=24789
http://www.casiocalc...indpost&p=24789
http://www.casiocalc...indpost&p=24789

After this great post of mine which had no reply from you or Crimson, we started to get off topic and the conflict was back after I restarted the topic and that great post of mine was forgotten...

Please, read that post of mine again before reading further of this reply.

which is still kinda dumb because i dont remember you making any comments on any of the links i posted (remember the clinton and democrat quotes? maybe the 59 deciets in f 9/11?) if you want to understand what our views are, read our links, read our posts, and most importantly, respect our views.

About the clinton quotes, I replyed (If I remember well) that it wasn't a fight about democrat vs republicans but that it was all about Bush behaviour.
And if you are referencing at "Clinton was offered bin ladden and refused it", I explained why he couldn't take him.

About F911 deceits, I read the first pages (it's quite long) when you posted the links. It was quite interesting, it makes you understand why MM got the Gold Palm. Then after reading it I've accepted that all MM was saying wasn't entirely true but that the base is true.
Furthermore, when you've seen the movie you understand that what is said in "59 deciets" is also partially false and that the writers are misleading the reader, and that what they are saying against MM could be applied to them and would work just as well.
And as Huhn said most of their sources are "unknown" to the public, and so quite difficult to trust while MM's sources are known publicly.


Another point, you are often referencing Israel for being your alie. Then you should have observed that Sharon strike back against terrorists are leading nowhere but to more hatred and more attacks...

but you sure dont seem to care if saddam has mass graves of his own people that he has shot, tortured and raped?

Of course I care, the fact that Saddam was removed is the only good point that Bush have. The problem is the way he did it, he didn't even declared war to Iraq, he told lies to make people think hussein was a threat, he ignored what the other countries had to say, so many innocents were killed, etc... (I won't start again)
It doesn't seem Bush liberate Iraqies, they are now suffering terrorists attack. Iraqi became a training camp for terrorists

he has to lie to convince people? "That kind of quotes doesn't encourage me to read his books... :/"

I just hate when you take a sentence and return it against the one who said it...

He didn't "lie" he (voluntarily or not) removed some details that was hiding the truth behind fog. And as we said even if 10% of F911 is wrong it's not a reason to ignore the 90% that is true.

And MM never said stupid things like your favorite writer did...

no, you listen. i wouldnt exactly call all his sites reliable, i mean, if i had posted similar sites, you would say they were lies... (btw, most were not news network sites, so if i can't post anything but that, how come you get away with it?)

Yep some of the link I posted were links to other post by people like us that were talking about Bush, but, if you'd have opened the links, you'd have seen that those people were linking to "news" or other reliable websites.


Now lets talk about your "democrat's quote", (Huhn answered very whell to the rest of your post)

Well this "democrat" has the same problem than you all "Bush lovers" (just an expression), she fears terrorists and think that Bush is better to "protect" America. But she forgets she is living on Earth like other countries like France (which she obviously doesn't like) who may have a word about the "world protection"... this post is long enough I'll comment later on that.

[huhn_m]

First quotes on 2072:

Well I agree with a lot what you said but I don't agree with this:

[quote]About conservative books, I already told you I don't share the opinions of conservative people so I cannot agree with them in anyway. [..] to me those people are stupid from the begining (it's just my opinion).[/quote]

If we want the americans to read the MM books that they might call "liberal bullshit" we must also at least try to read their books. Although they are biased as well and not in the direction we want it but neither are the MM books for them. My problem is that I don't want to spend money on these books. If you can give me one for reading on the computer (for free). I'll agree to read it so that finally this dumb statement "Hanity said" is over.

To bob:

Sorry bob ... I read the decites AND I read the factual backup and I found the factual backup more thrustfull (especially after seeing the movie)

@the "democrats quote"

QUite a lot of work so lets start at the beginning:

[quote]For me, Authentic Feminism is rooted in making it possible for people to make the choices that best suit them. [/quote]
And bush does this by forbidding aborting instead of giving a woman the chioce?

[quote]and yet for the 3,000 people who died on September 11th, abortion rights and same-sex civil unions mean absolutely nothing to them now[/quote]

But of course they want civil iraqsis to die. Neither them NOR their government did participate in this attack. As long as she does not accept this she is simply declining the truth. I think NOTHING is important for them anymore.

[quote]These issues, while important to me and ones on which I will continue to speak out about, are luxuries in the face of a world war where the enemy is a stateless savage who hunts children and cuts off people?s heads.[/quote]
If you argue this way the terrorists have achieved their goals. Namely that you can never feel safe again and that you abandon you basic rights in order to fight them. You make them the winner by slowly destroying you democracy.

[quote]We have a responsibility to leave this nation as great as it is to the next generation. [/quote]

I think there is no way left to do this anymore. Americas image in the world is damaged in our generation (for most) beyond repair since you confirmed that an attack on a souvereign country is OK by agreeing to Bush. You have made the opinion of Bush your own. So now actually when we said before "we do not hate america, we hate the government" we must accept now that this is not true anymore since america HAS confirmed that it has the same opinion as their president (or none).

[quote]Those soldiers did not die because they were promised 72 virgins in the afterlife, they fought not for themselves ? they died in the most noble of American causes ? so future generations ? us ? could live in freedom.[/quote]

Just one thing ... they get money for going to war (and not too few).

[quote]Those of you with children have a more immediate concern, which is the literal safety of the light of your life.

That little face looks up at you as you tuck her in, and sleeps gently knowing that Mommy and Daddy are there.

That same face stares at you in the morning, with a heart full of hope, limited only by her imagination because you confront, for her, the harsh realities of every day. And these days it?s not just about making a living, it?s about the Beslan school massacre, it?s a new al-Qaida tape threatening Americans at home, it?s about war and mad savages who have specifically targeted children.
[/quote]

She probably is no mother or else she would not say this. I would like to see her arguments if one of her children died in iraq if she had some.

She is again simply ignoring the fact that Iraq had nothing got to do with al-Quaeda. I think this must be caused by the merican propaganda since you are mixing several things up here.

[quote]I voted for President Bush because having a Pacifist Internationalist in the White House will only embolden those who salivate at the sight of our blood.[/quote]
Because history has shown us, that war will always lead to peace ...

[quote]I do not want a man in the White House who is so cold, when asked by a New York Times reporter how September 11th changed him, answers ?It didn?t change me much at all.?[/quote]

I think this is taken out of context. SHow me the full interview and I'll agree with you. I bet there was said something like "in aspect of ... BUT" said behind it.

[quote]And frankly, it?s not necessarily a bad thing to have a president who encourages social activism on issues. [/quote]
But but IS a bad thing if this president anchors these issuses in the constitution so that the things they fight for get useless.
Whet do they want to fight for it the gay marryage and the aborting are forbidden by the constitution. Also I clearly doubt that this woman represents the majority of women in america since, after the statistics most women voted for kerry.

Btw. the typical bush voter is: White, Old, Christian and Male ... Think about it ...

[quote]Bill Clinton showed us the decline of the Democratic Party into a gang spouting slogans to make women, gays and blacks feel Daddy was in the house, to our grave regret. What did we get? A sexual compulsive who put Monica Lewinsky on her knees instead of cutting bin Laden off at his.[/quote]

why do you always think you have a right to interfere in the private live of your president. This did NOT AFFECT his office AT ALL. What he did with monica might have been wrong but it is a thing done a thousand times in the us EVERY day. Why should the president not ALSO be a human and have human weaknesses? Why should he not also have the rights the americans have? If you want a perfect president you should probably vote for a roboter. (Arnold Schwarzenegger )

[quote]Yes, there were plenty of Democrats, feminists, gays and blacks in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and on those fateful flights. I?m sure you would agree that in their last moments their literal lives were more important to them than party affiliation.[/quote]

yes, I agree but I do also think that they would have been intelligent enough to see why this happened and that the politics bush is doing now won't change anything but to the worse. They are dead and you are on a revenge war that will only make things worse and would NOT have been wanted by the brave men like the ones on the pensivanian plane.

[quote]making sure tomorrow comes, that this nation not just survives, but emerges from this war like the others we have fought, in a world that has been transformed for the better.[/quote]
again you don't see that war will not change anything to the better but by closing your eyes from the everyday life in iraq that happens there now.

Tomorrow will come but I dare not think about what it will bring.

[quote]President Reagan grappled with European polls, anger and resentment, all of which evaporated when the Soviet regime collapsed. [/quote]

again total ignorance of history.

It did not collaps because of the thread but because of a lack of money and the opinion of the people. And this was a cold war and not one like the thing in iraq. What do you think would have happened if the US did actually attack the SU? Only the people can change the face of a nation permanently. War never can.

[quote]Today, President Bush faces the same polls, the same anger, and the same resentment as he, too, recognizes and engages a rabid enemy of civilization, Islamo-Fascists.[/quote]

and how does he want to fight that? Terrorism is not manifested in a single state and the comparision with the SU is WAY beyond reality. Does he want to fight all states that house terrorists. Maybe he should start with the US itsselft and then continue with germany, france, GB, Spain ...

[quote]we have a pretty good track record of making the world a safer and better place.[/quote] this is simply arrrogant. Name once occasion where you have made the world safer. (Except maybe WW2 but also this is doubtfull with throwing atomic bombs)

[quote]I voted for President Bush because he has freed 50 million people, 25 million of which are women and girls. The feminist establishment, in a shameful exhibit of their hypocrisy, has ignored that fact.[/quote]

"freed from a cruel dictator, imprissoned without rights, tortured, left to terrorists and anarchy" would be the correct listing.

[quote]finally have hope, liberty and freedom.[/quote]

hope to die faster then under torture,
liberty = the liberty to accepted "fake" elections (Afgh)
freedom from one dictator, ruled by others

[quote] He?s a man of strength and character.[/quote]

*lol!!!!* He is a man of character and stength?

I only say "we go in and smoke them out "
He is only listening to and doing what the small staff arround him tells him
to do. (Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rice ...)

[quote]I want it to be against a man whom I can admire, who I know, despite our disagreements, honors me in his work to keep this nation free and great.[/quote]

YOu can admire this man? This ginny cat?
He can keep your nation free of what? Terrorism? *rofl*

[quote]Let me tell you this - voting for the President does not change who you are or what you stand for[/quote]
Your votes express your opinion towards the politics of "The preisdent" and
are recogniced in the world. Though you might not think this you are now a nation of right wingers for most.

I really find this frustrating. She cannot call herself a democrat or liberal if she votes for the rightest wing of the right partie. Libaral? Conservative?
Well it is confirmed that Cheney/Wolfowitz belong to the most conservative part of the rebublicans and by voting for them you confirm that you belong to these closely.

She neither represnets the fiminsts nor the liberals nor the women in your country.

But anyways maybe Bush is good for you and, thought I think it is sad that we have to say this, it keeps our people out of iraq while under kerry we might have had to make new discussions we do not need them under bush.

It is sad but we will remind you of all your statemnts that bush has made the world safe after the next terror attack. At least the terrorists now stay focused on you and are detracted from nic little peaceful (France/Germany) "Old Europe" (I think the nation that were awarded with this term can wear it with pride since it confirms that we do no agree to "War for Oil" and are no simply "Yes-Sayers" to the US.

The US have to think about, if they want partners what partners they want. Do they want partners, who anly say "yes" and "Amen" or do they want partners that make constructive discussions and can give advice and tips.

But it seems that you are better turning towards the "new europe".

Now this was a long post ...

Have a nice weekend and "May God Bless Old Europe"

[2072]

First I compltely agree with all what huhn_m said.

If we want the americans to read the MM books that they might call "liberal bullshit" we must also at least try to read their books. Although they are biased as well and not in the direction we want it but neither are the MM books for them. My problem is that I don't want to spend money on these books. If you can give me one for reading on the computer (for free). I'll agree to read it so that finally this dumb statement "Hanity said" is over.

Well you are right about that point, I'm giving the wrong example :/ I'm willing to read those books but I won't spend money for them either. I'll check if there is a free medium to know more about those books.

[CrimsonCasio]

i got to say this (im not arguing but still...) i posted this at least twice, its free: http://www.hannity.c...nt=/live_stream

(although it would have been more effective befor the election as he has slackened off against kerry and moore now...)

[huhn_m]

I don't want a live stream since I have dial-in modem and it is slow and
costs a lot of money to listen to the radio via internet.

[Bob Vila]

i dont want to start up this argument again, but i thought you guys might like to know that MM was on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno last night (like the 3rd time this year) to promote his new book. the reason i brought it up was because, he had no baseball cap, and no beard. he had combed hair, shaved face, and a suit on! it was the first time i had seen what the top of his head really looked like

[genesis]

Some things to take your mind off all of this:



And take a look at the IQ of voters: http://www.chrisevan...om/files/iq.htm

[2072]

Hmmm... that's a strange coincidence, isn't it?

[Bob Vila]

nice map, though i dont see what it has to do with the election. the civil war happened 140 years ago, and if you remember correctly, the democrats were the ones that started that war (the southern states had a gargantously huge democratic base at the time) . and it was a democratic president that let the civil war happen. something i thought that i would point out.
and the IQ thing is most interesting, but where is the author getting his data?

[Chani]

@ Genesis and 2072: That little IQ diatribe was retracted by the magazine that published it. They calcualated the standard deviations wrong, I believe.

As an interesting sidenote, this is a great article about Bush vs. Kerry's IQ.
http://www.vdare.com...ry_iq_lower.htm

And http://www.amconmag....06/feature.html

[2072]

@Bob: this has nothing to do with civil war: it's about which state was practicing slavery or allowing it versus the ones that prohibited it. You notice that all the states that voted for Bush were also using slave before the civil war... I know it can't proove anything but it's still a very strange coincidence.

@Chani: You know I revised my thought about Bush stupidity, he had to be very clever to manipulate American people like he did (and like he is still doing though he seems to be more quiet since the elections), he is playing the fool but he isn't one...

[betoe]

Hi guys. This is a bit off topic but watching "discovery travel&adventure" some days ago i watched a program about historic curses in the world. I watched one about this:

Each 20 years(in the years that are exactly multiples of 20, like 1900, 1960 etc...), the elected president of the united states suffer something strange or die.

In 1960 JFK was elected and he died, in 1980 Reagan (thanks to the bodyguards he can finish his presidence), etc... We will see what will happen to JW Bush .

*Note: i dont believe in that kind of things.

[CrimsonCasio]

have any of you ever heard of the strange connections between JFK and Lincoln?

[2072]

nope.

JFK has been killed because he was infected by a very dangerous virus (the JL3) that could have destroyed life on Earth...

The immortals (Original title: Le grand secret) by Ren? Barjavel

Another book by Ren? Barjavel (one of the best I've ever read):

The Ice People (Original title: La nuit des temps)

[2072]

http://www.sorryeverybody.com/