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Do You Believe In God?


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Poll: Do you believe in God.

Do you believe in God.

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#1 Mr_Sparkle

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 02:24 PM

I am curious to know what everyone thinks of God and whether you believe or not? Please feel free to reply with your thoughts.

#2 Bytefish

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 03:46 PM

Yeah I believe in God and I don't need to attend church regularly to show it.
If you believe in nothing you lose your hope in life and if you think about the
question of God long enough you will recognize, that your life would be nonsense if there was nothing after it.
What do you live for then?
If I don't believe in him I am just living to die.
What is quite unlogical.
I attend to believe that all your life consists of experiences.
You know, your birth is one, love is one, sadness is one, hate, anger, fear and also death.
That's my religion. There is something after death.
And I am quite sure there is God.
As long as nobody can prove his non-existence he exists...
You can tell me all the world is mathematics or something, but you know in your last second of life
you will be afraid of the dark and nothing you created throughout a nihilistic life...

#3 huhn_m

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 06:45 PM

wow ... bytie I totally agree with you.

I don't attend curch regularly (beside from youth church/serivce) but I do believ in God. Maybe I do not always agree with what the church says but I believe that god exists.

#4 Bob Vila

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 08:03 PM

wow ... bytie I totally agree with you.

heh, me too.

yeah, i believe in God too. i go to church regularly

btw, anyone see a move in this threads furture to the hot disscussion forum? :lol:

#5 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 08:31 PM

lol, bytie, i thought you were all negative these days ;)

of course i do as well :)

#6 2072

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 08:50 PM

I don't believe in God and I have no religion.
But I do believe in higher levels of existense :)

As long as nobody can prove his non-existence he exists...


I could say: As long as nobody can prove his existence he doesn't exist...

#7 huhn_m

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 09:04 PM

take it as a "postulate" (don't know the exact name)

Many of the basics of sience are base arround such things.
They are inproovabe (yet) and though are assumed to be right.
(e.g. Take the building of an atom )

#8 betoe

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 11:07 PM

I believe in god, but i dont go to a church. ITs the only (logic? at least for me :D) explanation of why we are here and there are a lot of beautiful and complex stuff around us.

#9 2072

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 11:21 PM

Never heard anything about Darwin?

Religions always had easy answers to difficult questions. If only all religions had the same answers...
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#10 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 11:32 PM

Darwin didnt disprove god... or anything in any (major) religion. think about it this way, if you were in charge of running existance would you want to have to make sure everything did what you wanted it to all the time? I wouldnt, I'd just set up rules by which everything must operate and set it in motion (call them "physics"). its the most logical way to run things (and we all constantly emulate this process in our games dont we).

evolution is just another aspect of that same set of rules, its the process by which we adapt to a changing enviornment, and it makes perfect sense to set things up this way...

plus, almost all the most famous scientists believed in god or a created universe, Einstine (sp?), Darwin, Hawking, etc...

#11 2072

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 11:44 PM

Then where God is from? Who created the "rules" that permit him to "exist"?

#12 casiokingdom

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 01:40 AM

i believe in God and attend Church on a regular basis.

#13 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:05 AM

Then where God is from? Who created the "rules" that permit him to "exist"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i dont know... i suspect we will never know that unfortunately :(
but the same can be said about all of us, what sparked existance? what happened that caused everything to "be"? and how could such a thing happen if nothing existed previously...

an interesting theory would be that since nothing as a concept truely cannot exist, something had to exist in order to balence the paradox of nothingness... in this respect all ideas both for and aginst the idea of god are equal, since there is no proof either way.

#14 2072

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:28 AM

yes, humans had to give a name to the unknown, they named it GOD...

hmm btw: do you know that true void (nothingness) doesn't exist? There are particles that appear and disappear all the time, I remember there is an experience proving that...

(Merged by Forty-Two)

#15 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:19 AM

:huh: i think you mis-understood me... (cause that didnt make sense...)

i just said nothingness cannot exist, thats what that whole theory was about ;)

as for the unknown, its not what's not known i would call the evidence of god, its all that we do know about things that prove it to me, quatum physics constantly shows more and more proof of a created universe, and while i dont claim that it proves the existance of the Christian God, it does (or will) prove the existance of something we as yet have no better name for, and eventually it may prove one religion over another, who knows...

btw, are you talking about anti-matter?

#16 betoe

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 05:12 AM

Here my friends laught a lot about me :D, coz i dont believe:
1) UFO's (ovnis here :D), i think there is life in other planets but i will doubt about ufo's and martians :P, i will believe in them if one day i talk to one or i have good proofs (no videos etc...) about it.
2) ghosts
3) magic

And other stuff that its simillar. Also i will never get married by church. Why the hell i will go to a church one day for get married if i never go to church (like a lot of people here)?.

Science and forcible evidence rules :P.

#17 Bytefish

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 03:14 PM

2072:
Deep inside you, you know it will go on somehow.
And many things in science aren't proved and taken as right like huhn_m says.
Science teaches you nothing for real life.
I see it every day, how come you can't cope with a lot situations?
How come you can't rely on mathematics and biologics 90% of the day.
I don't say science is useless, take medics for example.
But it doesn't help you living a life. Same with programming.
What does your algorithms and 10.000 lines long code helps you if your girlfriend leaves you over things you can't even see and understand?
People are all the same, we all die alone.
Experiences are the element of life, back to topic, that's my religion.
And with my "religion" you have no fear of death, because you know "death" doesn't exist.
Nobody ever said God is a Person. It can also be an experience.
The Bible is written by humans, it's your free will to believe in it or not.
I tend to not believe a lot written in it.

CrimsonCasio:
Yeah I am negative these days, but my bottle Ouzo will help me out again I guess.

#18 Roeoender

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 04:29 PM

I thought we finished this topic. :rolleyes:

1. This poll's answers are biassed towards people believing in God - I am an atheist but I cannot choose:
Who is God? - as I know what people understand by this word in different places of the world
Who cares? - I was interested in religion since I was very young
No, I dont know enough about him to believe - ditto
No, I can't be bothered - ditto
NO, I HATE AND DESPISE GOD!!! - if you hate God than you believe in him - illogical.

So I didn't have choice in this poll. Its childish to make a poll and suggest the answer or prosecute "wrong" (in your opinion) answers.

2. First sin of "god followers": they think by this simple mechanism:
a. Life with God makes sense.
b. Life without God doesn't make sense.
So from a and b => God exists and is good.
Well this is simply a wishfull thinking - you think that God just because it would be better if he did.
Most God's attributes come from this wishfull thinking - God is just a wishlist.
Do you get it? You have no evidences about attributes of God or even of his existence and you describe him. You believe in mythology from ancient times (one of thousends) which was reinterpreted and reshaped (some books of bible in, some out same was done with 10 main laws by the Church on "sobors").
People so rarely investigate unbiased history of their religion.
They often use very funny semilogical argumentation often based on wishes, idealization and oversimplification (see how many times religious claims about reality were wrong - vide Copernicus, Giordano Bruno, Darwin many more)

3. Second sin of "god followers" - they aren't able to imagine that someone can be intelligent, well educated and counciously doesn't believe in God. They always think that such person is terribly blind, thoughtless and if he'd only had a simple contact with the idea of god he would be enlightened. It is a great fun because it often comes out that this "believer" is so limited that he only sees the world (it's history, mechanics, ppl relations, even physics and biology) from the point of his own religion and isn't able to defend his beliefs with logical arguments. I always have pity for those blinded people as they weren't able to hear and understand any other point of view.

Well I could write on and on but this is pointless there are some logical traps for believers inside their religion that make them deaf for destabilizing argumentation.
Moreover I am not a crusador I won't invide other people to force them thining the way I am.
;)

Roeoender.
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#19 2072

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 07:17 PM

btw, are you talking about anti-matter?


yes but more precisely, I'm talking about the Casimir effect discovered in 1948.

http://www.halexandr...rg/dward152.htm

As you said nothingness never existed, even before the BigBang particles and anti-particles where already appearing and disappearing.

#20 huhn_m

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 08:10 PM

they aren't able to imagine that someone can be intelligent, well educated and counciously doesn't believe in God. They always think that such person is terribly blind, thoughtless and if he'd only had a simple contact with the idea of god he would be enlightened. It is a great fun because it often comes out that this "believer" is so limited that he only sees the world (it's history, mechanics, ppl relations, even physics and biology) from the point of his own religion and isn't able to defend his beliefs with logical arguments. I always have pity for those blinded people as they weren't able to hear and understand any other point of view.


hm ... everyone his free believe and I don't want to convince you to belive in "God" whatever you may define it as but this seems ignorant to me.

You can't generalize this argument. Bad things were and are done in the name of God but you can not say all who believe in him/her/it think the way you described.
I can imageine that somebody is intelligent, well educated and doesn't believe in god... This is not my problem, not my affair and will never change the way I think about anyone. Religion is a private thing. Like I would not change my oppinion about someone because the has a small penis or stuff (you know what I mean ;) )

A lot of good scientists were "Believers" as you call them. If their sight of the world was limited does this make their inventions/discoveries less important / noteable? I don't think so.

You do generalize too much in my opinion. Not everyone who believes in God doesn't want to hear another opinion. When you say that there are things said in the religion that contradict each other I will dearly agree to you. If you read the bible there are contradictions.
But the thing is that you don't neccessarily need a bible to believe in god. And for sure the bible is not intended as a "manual for life" that has to be taken by word. Often the things that were said between the lines and that make the foundations of modern western countries are more important. Does the exact point where someone lived or was born really matter? Does it even matter if this one existed as long as the message that is said is an valueable addition to your values? I don't think so.

In my mind everyone can believe what he/she wants but please do not attack people who DO believe with generalizing arguments. I think you do not know our way to believe quite well enough to judge us this way.

#21 Bytefish

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 05:11 PM

Hey Roeoender,
I won't be personal, but you try to seem as smart as possible here.
But your arguments have one fault:
You can't generalize people.
There are not only hyper christs. Religion isn't just the Islam and the Catholic Church.
Life without something after it indeed makes no sense.
For what are you living then? Why do you keep on learning?
Whats the sense of your life, if you are just here to die?

#22 Roeoender

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 02:14 PM

If you wan't reply please read carefully.

huhn_m:
Sorry my english isn't very good so I cannot express myself veryprecisly.

[quote]A lot of good scientists were "Believers" as you call them. If their sight of the world was limited does this make their inventions/discoveries less important / noteable? I don't think so.[/quote]
Ofcourse not. I provided examples of scientists that discovered the true model of the world which wasn't coherent with Christian (and most of the others) and thus were attacked for long. And what about "Creationism" - great example of forcing beliefs into science. Imagine what the world would look like without over 1K yr long stagnation of "spirited" medieval times.

Btw the things that priests tell in church about atheists (or people who won't obey) makes me laugh.


[quote]there are things said in the religion that contradict each other [/quote]
I just wonder how people can so passionatly defend statements (ie. with bombs) of their religion and discredit other religion's claims while both have same weak and uncertain fundaments.

[quote]In my mind everyone can believe what he/she wants but please do not attack people who DO believe with generalizing arguments. I think you do not know our way to believe quite well enough to judge us this way.[/quote]
Sorry, I just got irritated by the "happy ignorance" of this poll and used some bad statements.
What I wrote in prev. post is rather the description of my experience ("common scenario") when discussing with some believers. Just don't behave the way I described;).


Bytefish posts:
[quote]If you believe in nothing you lose your hope in life and if you think about the
question of God long enough you will recognize, that your life would be nonsense if there was nothing after it.[/quote]
But it CAN be thruth that that there is no God and people just like animals and plants (described in some religions) live and die and they don't have anykind of "soul" that would live further.
Or maybe you even don't takethis scenario into account?

People hate void - if you'll look at the darkness long enough you'll see shapes that don't exist.
Whether life has or hasn't got sense doesn't imply that there is a God.
People hate vision of sensless death thus they solved this with idea of God (well it helped easly answer many other questions) this gave their inteligence some psychic stability and allowed to live and evolve without the knowledge.


[quote]What do you live for then?
If I don't believe in him I am just living to die.
What is quite unlogical.[/quote]
Well relax and just have the pleasure from the ride. B)
World is big (much bigger than most religions expected) and exists long, it's mechanics, history and speculations about the future are fascinating,
Philosophy is a worthy subject too.
Don't get limited by the imagination of religious leaders that lived 2K+ yrs ago.
World has much more to offer then they want limit it to.
Religion is often an oversimplification of the complexity of the world - this is why there are so many fanatics - they can't stand that people can happly live and disobey "the rules".

Btw most people around 80 are so tired that they are glad when death comes.
Doesn't the idea of ethernal happiness scares you? Well think about it ;)
Having the knowledge that you'll come to where you started (/dev/null) has some good aspects too - you just don't have to try that much ;).


[quote]As long as nobody can prove his non-existence he exists... [/quote]
Nope, wishfull thinking. The same ill way you can prove existence of a sect of 7 giant god-hedgehogs that control the future of the world or gods from Greek mythology or that Elvis lives. :D

[quote]You can tell me all the world is mathematics or something, but you know in your last second of life
you will be afraid of the dark and nothing you created throughout a nihilistic life... [/quote]
Once again - you force God existence as a solution to fear.
Life without God isn't nihilistic or destructive or anything like that.
Well you can believe in humanity and that it may in some distant future defeat death if you just have to believe in something.

[quote]And many things in science aren't proved and taken as right like huhn_m says.[/quote]
This is not a reason to fill the gap with religious-fiction or with my best wishes.

[quote]Science teaches you nothing for real life.[/quote]
Yes, but it doesn't have the mission, thus there are no taboos for it or rules forced "from above" that it can't discredit.

[quote]I see it every day, how come you can't cope with a lot situations?
How come you can't rely on mathematics and biologics 90% of the day.[/quote]
Well I've got brain, I think and feel, I have empathy for other beings and I think this is very conscious way of life. I don't expect to go to "heaven" for good deads. I do good things only because I understand them good. I do bad things because as every human I have animal roots.

[quote]I don't say science is useless, take medics for example.
But it doesn't help you living a life.[/quote]
It't doesn't have to, but unbiased description of what works and realistic models of stuff that yet hasn't got a proof is helpful too.
As a matter of fact this is the only thing we can safely stick too - as you can believe in anything that isn't against science in this sense religion will always be defeated by science.


Roeoender.

#23 Chani

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 03:51 PM

I believe in God, and in science.

In my mind everyone can believe what he/she wants but please do not attack people who DO believe with generalizing arguments. I think you do not know our way to believe quite well enough to judge us this way.


I think huhn has a good point, and maybe you weren't trying to generalize everyone into one catagory. I've had a number of religious discussions with people in my life, and one thing remains the same: Everyone believes what they want, and if it makes them happy, you should be happy for them and not judge them by it. I think everyone has good in them, and you just have to look at that.

Science teaches you nothing for real life.

This quote confuses me. I think there are many valuable things we can learn from science. I consider myself a well-educated, intelligent person. As such, I have read Darwin, Einstein, Hawking, Gould, etc. I think science is magnificent. I'll keep the rest of my thoughts to myself, because arguing about them won't change my knowledge, and it won't change yours. Let's just accept the fact that everyone believes differently and we can get along without arguing over who's right. :)

#24 huhn_m

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 05:54 PM

[quote]Btw the things that priests tell in church about atheists (or people who won't obey) makes me laugh.
[/quote]
I must have missed sth. there ... what do they tell? Have you ever visited church ...

[quote]I just wonder how people can so passionatly defend statements (ie. with bombs) of their religion and discredit other religion's claims while both have same weak and uncertain fundaments.
[/quote]
I think it is long time ago that at least christians "defended" their religion with bombs.
Do you wan't to tell me I'm a nazi because one of my ancesters might have been one?

[quote]But it CAN be thruth that that there is no God and people just like animals and plants (described in some religions) live and die and they don't have anykind of "soul" that would live further.[/quote]

but It can't be true as well ...

[quote]Philosophy is a worthy subject too.[/quote]
so you'd considder discussing wether the chicken was first there or the egg worthy?

[quote]Don't get limited by the imagination of religious leaders that lived 2K+ yrs ago. World has much more to offer then they want limit it to.
[/quote]
I never said I am ... you should not generalize ... again and again ...

[quote]Btw most people around 80 are so tired that they are glad when death comes.
[/quote]
And soem die at 16 and I'm sure they are not.

[quote]Doesn't the idea of ethernal happiness scares you? Well think about it ;)
[/quote]
No, actually not ... some do not even believe in the "live after the live" but in rebirth what do you tell them?

[quote]Having the knowledge that you'll come to where you started (/dev/null) has some good aspects too - you just don't have to try that much ;).[/quote]

The funny thing is that you have for sure not started at /dev/null but more likely at
"join /dev/mother /dev/father"

[quote]Nope, wishfull thinking. The same ill way you can prove existence of a sect of 7 giant god-hedgehogs that control the future of the world or gods from Greek mythology or that Elvis lives.  :D [/quote]
Or you could assume that electrons rotate on fixed ways arround the core of an atom without setting free energy ...

[quote]Life without God isn't nihilistic or destructive or anything like that.[/quote]
I never said it is but a live with good might give you some other views ...

[quote]Yes, but it doesn't have the mission, thus there are no taboos for it or rules forced "from above" that it can't discredit.[/quote]
Oh actually there are and though I would set them quite wide ranged they are called ethnic. Would you like to create a super human as a combination of machine and human (terminator?)

[quote]Well I've got brain, I think and feel, I have empathy for other beings and I think this is very conscious way of life. I don't expect to go to "heaven" for good deads.[/quote] you don't have to ... but we KNOW that, if we live after "the rules" we'll die with the knowledge to have done the right things while we lived ...

[quote]It't doesn't have to, but unbiased description of what works and realistic models of stuff that yet hasn't got a proof is helpful too.[/quote]
what is defined as realistic? What our small human brain can cope with?

[quote]As a matter of fact this is the only thing we can safely stick too - as you can believe in anything that isn't against science in this sense religion will always be defeated by science.[/quote]

And I think the perfect solution is a combination of both ... I like chani ... I belive in science and god too.

#25 2072

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 11:00 PM

Philosophy is a worthy subject too.


so you'd considder discussing wether the chicken was first there or the egg worthy?


You should interest yourself at philosophy because you, obviously, have a wrong approach of it.

The funny thing is that you have for sure not started at /dev/null but more likely at
"join /dev/mother /dev/father"


What Roeoender said is that before your birth you didn't exist, you had no consciousness of yourself then there is a big possibility that it will be the same after your death...

I never said it is but a live with good might give you some other views ...


Well a life without God could too.

you don't have to ... but we KNOW that, if we live after "the rules" we'll die with the knowledge to have done the right things while we lived ...


Personally I don't need "rules" to know what is good from what is bad...

I don't like the religions, it's a medium to prevent the people from thinking by themselves and from evolving in their minds. Religions where useful 2k years ago because it helped people to unit and to work together but now it's causing a lot of troubles around the world. I think that a new religion need to be written :) The current ones aren't adapted to the present world.

#26 Orwell

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 11:37 PM

Hehe what a nice debate here :)

For my part, I don't believe in God neither.

Actually I totally agree with Bytefish's first post:

If you believe in nothing you lose your hope in life and if you think about the
question of God long enough you will recognize, that your life would be nonsense if there was nothing after it.
What do you live for then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For me, God is an invention created by people that cannot face the crual reality: our lifes are aimless. We came on earth without definite purpose, and we will stop to exist after our death.

I have the same point of view than Roe and 2072: the religion only brings you easy answers to existencial questions.
It's quite easier to think that God has given a sense to our live than to admit the opposite. My philosophy is to stay fully aware of this reality, and not to try to run away from this. I know we live in a dark world, that life is hard, and i still face it. no illusion at all... thats my strength.

But if we live in a difficult world, we are the only one able to change it. I dont want to turn to God or anything else if i have bad problems; i don't want to pray, or cry: i have to act. We have the power to change things. We don't have to ask God to solve it for us: we just have to move our asses, men have to deal with their own problems. The world is dark, and we have the power to bring a bit of light or to make it darker. It's up to us, it's no good to ask God what He thinks about it. I believe in man, not in God.

BTW, i won't criticize men that believe in God: they choosed another philosophy than mine, and I will respect it, as long as their believes can help them to act and bring a bit of light on earth. (and not in heart, hu, i said on earth, so sth clearly visible by anyone and not only a feeling inside of us).
But I will never accept that men try to lay down their philosophy and pretend there are absolute laws edicted long ago by someone above us.

I don't really want to speak about the usual "God >< Science" conflict... You are comparing Physics and Religion, and I think its really nonsense... The aim of Physics is "to give a description of all 'observable' phenomens (during repeated experiences) with the help of some simple fundamental principles". We don't say those principles are absolute, but we verified them so often that we think they are correct, and then we can build theory on it. And it works really fine; there were cases however where men needed to reconsider some of those principles to find better results, and it is not finished yet :)
Nature has rules, and those principles try to approximate those rules: physics don't try to explain why those rules exist, it just says what we can do from that.

Well, about my vision of death: :P
Did you ever fall asleep some evening and "immediately" wake up in the morning, thinking you didn't sleep at all? You had no conscience of what happened during the night.
For me, death is exactly the same, except that we'll never woke up. B)

#27 huhn_m

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 11:20 AM

You should interest yourself at philosophy because you, obviously, have a wrong approach of it.

This is exactly what I wanted to show you ... have you ever been to service or youth church ... because you seemt to have the wrong picture of it ...
I know that Philosophy is not only about the chicken and the egg ;) it was more intended
to show you what your statements sounded like ... gerneralising and based on general public opinions withouth having seen anything yourself ... at least it sees to be this way. I don't want you to believe in god. I only want you to have more tolerance ...

Btw. this was more aiming on roe than on you 2072 ...

Well a life without God could too.

good point ... but I think my life is OK. I wont change it and I actually don't want you to change yours.

Personally I don't need "rules" to know what is good from what is bad...

no ... you differ this by what you understand what moral is and this has been thougt to you by your parents and friends. And in fact the rules you life after (if you do) are those suggested by many religions. I don't want to show you that you need the bible to know what is ok but that the things the bible defines are the things you live after (and not because you read it in the bible :) ) ... I think I can'T express myself (*slaps himself* :D )

I don't like the religions, it's a medium to prevent the people from thinking by themselves and from evolving in their minds.

It is not ... you are maybe refering to the religions of 2K years ago but they are also evolving and what you state are prejudices ...

I think that a new religion need to be written :) The current ones aren't adapted to the present world.

There is one ... what do you thing capitalism is ... the believe in money and riches.

#28 2072

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 05:48 PM

no ... you differ this by what you understand what moral is and this has been thougt to you by your parents and friends. And in fact the rules you life after (if you do) are those suggested by many religions.


Well I don't agree with that (that without religion those rules wouldn't exist), a clever human being doesn't need rules to understand that he shouldn't do to somebody what he wouldn't like that this somebody does to him.

But as I said in another post, stupidity is the most common element with Hydrogen, so those people need a religion to behave correctly so to not kill the clever ones...


There is one ... what do you thing capitalism is ... the believe in money and riches.


That is not a religion, there is no invisible God to fear/believe in.

It is not ... you are maybe refering to the religions of 2K years ago but they are also evolving and what you state are prejudices ...


From what I know the Bible or the Coran are not evolving.

#29 Orwell

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 06:33 PM

Well I don't agree with that (that without religion those rules wouldn't exist), a clever human being doesn't need rules to understand that he shouldn't do to somebody what he wouldn't like that this somebody does to him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm i'm not sure about it... Most of mafia leaders are quite intelligent men that choosed another way of life; they use their intelligence as a weapon :(

I think we all need to consider such "rules" in our lifes, and religion is a way to approach it... But the problem is that it can be used to transmit other messages, and you allways have to keep a certain distance of it, and not "blindly" follow it :rolleyes:

#30 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 07:30 PM

lol, somebody selected the last choice... *sigh*

anyway, i wont get into another argument after just exiting the election one, but i did want to say the following:

There is one ... what do you thing capitalism is ... the believe in money and riches.




That is not a religion, there is no invisible God to fear/believe in.


actually, someone that thinks of capitalisim as a religion would have to believe in themselfs on the level others believe in god. they would consider themselves the center of the universe.

also, a hypothetical situation:

say you were in a situation (somehow) where there could not be any reprecussion for an act that would normally be very illegal, but very profitable. the question is, would you take the oppertunity? and why or why not?

#31 2072

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 09:34 PM

Hmm i'm not sure about it... Most of mafia leaders are quite intelligent men that choosed another way of life; they use their intelligence as a weapon


Yes you are right, being clever doesn't make you a good man... Those men where surely educated with wrong values about life or had terrible problems during their youth that prevented them to evolve normally. Even if they are intelligent in certain domains they are clearly stupid in others to act like they do.

A good education is the key to be a "good person". Education can create a terrorist that will explode killing others or it can create someone who respects life.

I don't think that human being are born fundamentally bad and need rules to remove this evil from inside them.


say you were in a situation (somehow) where there could not be any reprecussion for an act that would normally be very illegal, but very profitable. the question is, would you take the oppertunity? and why or why not?


Personaly I won't because that isn't law that prevent me to make illegual acts but my own consciousness.

#32 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 10:22 PM

so why do you have a concience? what makes it say that something is wrong?

#33 2072

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 10:28 PM

Like I said I don't do to others what I wouldn't like them to do to me... That's simple. I always test the consequences before doing something that implies others.

#34 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 10:34 PM

but why? what is the purpose in doing that? after all, the law of nature is eat or be eaten, and our most basic instincts dictate that we should put ourselves (and our genepool) above all others... what reason is there to go aginst it?

in a situation where there was no reprecussion treating others as you want to be treated has no merit, since no one would know how you treated your "victim", so there must be some underlying reason. there are no consequences in this hypothetical situation because nobody will know about it.

#35 2072

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 12:58 AM

Because we are human beings who try to not act like animals just following their instinct of survival...

About the gene pool thing, I think it's not the only way humans "get immortality", they get immortality through what they've accomplished during their living time and through the memories of the one who live after them.

I know that the major part of Earthers are not thinking this way, that is surely why religions had to be created, to guide them.

in a situation where there was no reprecussion treating others as you want to be treated has no merit, since no one would know how you treated your "victim", so there must be some underlying reason.


The fact that no one would ever know is wrong, My victims and I would know how I treated them.

#36 huhn_m

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 07:41 AM

*Read my statement about moral again. I don't think you understood me.

*An religion does not imply an invisible good or a "center of the universe". The good of capitalism is money. Thats how simply it is. Proove it wrong.

*No bible or coran are not evolving but the way they are interpreted is changing (according to the time we live in)

#37 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 12:16 PM

Because we are human beings who try to not act like animals just following their instinct of survival...

About the gene pool thing, I think it's not the only way humans "get immortality", they get immortality through what they've accomplished during their living time and through the memories of the one who live after them.

I know that the major part of Earthers are not thinking this way, that is surely why religions had to be created, to guide them.
The fact that no one would ever know is wrong, My victims and I would know how I treated them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


but why? why shouldnt we act like animals, when animals in fact represet the logical process of evolution, why do we have things like emotions, which often cause us to do things that are totaly aginst evolutionary principals?

as for your victims, since this is a no-repercussion situation, they wouldnt be able to do anything about what you did to them, assumably they would either be dead or not know who had wronged them, so why do you care if they know? they cant hurt you. and as for yourself, youve just followed basic evolutionary principals and strenghtend the chances of your survial, survival of the fittest at work. you should be patting yourself on the back. so why not?

#38 Marco

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 03:15 PM

I don?t believe in any god.

If you say "god was who created universe, because if god not was, universe could not exist", I wonder: who created god then? If universe couldn?t exist when nobody created it, couldn?t god exist then neither if nobody created him? So if god was, hadn?t there to be a kind over "over god" then who created him? And if so, who created "over god"?

Yeah, it?s true that you can?t explain all things by (today?s) science, but you can't simplify things by saying "I have no explaination for this; no matter - I just say it was god and all problems are quite solved for me" (remember, in the ancient world for example people believed that thunder was created by gods, just because they didn't find another way to explain it).

I also don't agree that life had no sense when god didn't exist; is god the aim of existence? Surely not. Aren?t WE the ones who give ourselves existence an intention? I think so.

Think about ethics and morality for example. Some regard it as a "higher law created by god". I say it's just a concept made by us humans. That does NOT mean that ethics and morality have no value or a lower value then; of course you can act ethical, why need a god therefore? You can make as much concepts as you want, for example giving your existence a sense. Why need a god therefore? If god was able to give us an intention, why shouldn't we be, too?

WE are who is responsible for us, nobody else.
------

And you may make also another concept: packing all this philosophical cencepts, that are important individually to you, together and call it (your) "god". But this doesn?t mean that a god exists then, but it refers a definition you made for yourself.

Btw., if god created our universe, he had to be outer universe cause he couldn?t be part of it. But "existence" is a concept defined in our universe only; things out of OUR universe don?t exist for us. So even if there WAS a god creating universe, for us, god wouldn?t exist: there was no way to interact with him, and in fact, there was no way for him to influence our universe too. And I also never heard about a case, where god did intervent.

#39 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 03:34 PM

I just want to point out that quantum physics has shown that sometimes an event can happen before its cause, thus possibly showing how the universe and god came to be.

#40 2072

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 10:25 PM

*Read my statement about moral again. I don't think you understood me.


Try to explain it again, because I don't understand what you wanted to say.

*An religion does not imply an invisible good or a "center of the universe". The good of capitalism is money. Thats how simply it is. Proove it wrong.


Well read the definition of the word "Religion" and you'll see that capitalism isn't one http://dictionary.re...arch?q=religion


*No bible or coran are not evolving but the way they are interpreted is changing (according to the time we live in)


So the original meaning can be transform in something else and lost, look at how the Coran is used as a brain-washing machine to create terrorists, that is clearly a different interpretation of its original meaning...

but why? why shouldnt we act like animals, when animals in fact represet the logical process of evolution, why do we have things like emotions, which often cause us to do things that are totaly aginst evolutionary principals?


As I said, we are human beings, unlike other animals we have the counsciousness of our own existence and we are intelligent, and so we don't only obey to animal instincts.
We are part of the evolution process too, our existence isn't against the evolutionary principals at all.

as for your victims, since this is a no-repercussion situation, they wouldnt be able to do anything about what you did to them, assumably they would either be dead or not know who had wronged them, so why do you care if they know? they cant hurt you. and as for yourself, youve just followed basic evolutionary principals and strenghtend the chances of your survial, survival of the fittest at work. you should be patting yourself on the back. so why not?


I've already answerd, it seems that you have an answer ready, so say it.


I just want to point out that quantum physics has shown that sometimes an event can happen before its cause, thus possibly showing how the universe and god came to be.


It's not any event on anything, you should research a bit more. Quantum physic only works for object of atomic size.




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