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Do You Believe In God?


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Poll: Do you believe in God.

Do you believe in God.

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#41 2072

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Posted 15 November 2004 - 04:37 AM

Oh my god, I think I just found the new thing that'll replace religion I was talking about! :)

That theorie explain so many things and don't even need a God or any dogmas... that's incredible, I think I'm beginning to believe it. :huh: (I'll ask to some very scientific people I know to have a more objective point of view about it though)

This is called "Hyperscience", it rejects almost every "rules" of actual physic, but is so more simple and logic... It explains logically a lot of thing that classic science cannot explain at all... like the origin of the Univers and of life!

This site is in English and in French

I found this website doing research about quantum physic, here is the first page I read:

http://www.hatem.com/science.htm

(knowing the principles of Quantum physic is better to understand) This page just destroy Quantum physic theory.


The same in French:

http://members.aol.c...lle/science.htm
After you read that you may read the beginning of the website (In English and French):

http://members.aol.com/rozeille/

#42 huhn_m

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Posted 15 November 2004 - 11:11 AM

Well read the definition of the word "Religion" and you'll see that capitalism isn't one

"A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. "
... ;)

About moral:

You didn't get your moral from the bible (I said) but the moral you have
is the same stated in the bible ... it states what moral is and thus gives people a guideline ...

#43 Roeoender

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 01:26 AM

I was forced offline for the weekend.

Well huhn_m you intentionally misunderstood my post.
I thought you are above such style of disscussing.
Your comments were ridiculous ("chicken", "terminator?")
thus I won't bother to answer them (and 2072 did my job B) ).

huhn_m:

Btw. this was more aiming on roe than on you 2072 ...

Btw you quoted statements that I clearly directed to Bytefish.

Generally I tried to say smthing beyond trivial (tolerance and all those basic things that everyone agrees on).
Enough of that.

Now about the interesting Crimsons' hipothesis:

say you were in a situation (somehow) where there could not be any reprecussion for an act that would normally be very illegal, but very profitable. the question is, would you take the oppertunity? and why or why not?

Theoretical answer:
I've already wrote that I've got EMPATHY for other beings. Having relativly (to animals) complicated brain I can put myself in someone elses' position and just have a pity for other alive being - we are brothers even with animals and plants (!) in a sense that we are all share the same world and face similiar problems.
I won't do something if I understand it as bad (of course there is a risk of "small intelect", but at least I won't do it blindly "as I was told that in church").
Others expressed it quite well.

Btw in many religions (like in Islam) people are often motivated by the great reward that they'll get for good deeds and that they'll be punished for the bad.
Is it ethical to do smthing just because you'll be rewarded?
OR: Recall what children do when they know that parents aren't watching?
How would many "believers" behave if they'd got to know that God doesn't exist or that people don't have "soul"?

Sociological/Darwin-like answer:
Humans are social beings (like ants, pinguins, ostrich. Oposite to predators, like Pumas, Eagles etc.) thus they have built-in (call it instinct) social behaviours/reactions (inherited from animals). So people unconsciously identify themselves with a "super-organism" (group of people, nation, country, race whatever) thus they (generally) won't like to do something that is against this "super-organism".
Do not limit evolution to single units (well you can even treat human as a "super-organism" - as a colony of cells). Evolution will reward every strategy that will enforce existence of any form. "Selfish" strategy produces chaos and destabilizes environment. "Selfish" strategy is successfull only in minimal amount (thus there are always far less predators than "socials").

but why? why shouldnt we act like animals, when animals in fact represet the logical process of evolution, why do we have things like emotions, which often cause us to do things that are totaly aginst evolutionary principals?

Animal's strategy isn't limited to killing each other (it is rather humans domain).
You oversimplified animals behaviour.

as for your victims, since this is a no-repercussion situation, they wouldnt be able to do anything about what you did to them, assumably they would either be dead or not know who had wronged them, so why do you care if they know?

But you must agree that people are rarely exposed to such situation (no consequences) so they aren't used to it and thus they would try to act like if the limitations weren't removed - the way they got used to (sad but true).

youve just followed basic evolutionary principals and strenghtend the chances of your survial, survival of the fittest at work. you should be patting yourself on the back. so why not?

Evolution is far more complicated than "tougher wins" (everything beyond virus won't behave that simply).


Realistic answer:
No one can say with 100% confidence what he'd do in such extreme situation.
With strong impulses (life threat, extreme pleasure) people act based on primitive instincts and turn off "higher layers". Everyone lerned about "Maslov's piramid of needs"? There are also some (about 7) selfdeceiving mechanisms that work in humans all the time and living without them woudln't be possible - this is psychological knowledge I didn't invent it. I can write about more deeply if you like.

So realistic answer is I wouldn't do it for the first time, maybe for the second, maaaaybe for the third, but I wouldn't depend on me at later occasions.
(How about Egiptian priests @ pharaon's times, Nero, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, people's behaviour @ holocaust).

And this is also why games like quake are so addictive...

Roeoender.

#44 huhn_m

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 06:47 AM

The thing with the chicdken was just to make you understand how simply YOUR arguments were. You have the prjudice that everyone at chucrch thinks everyone who does not do like we please is doomed and will go to hell.

Just as some think that Philosophy is just discussing about the chicken and the egg ... got it?


The philosophy statement was CLEARLY directed at you since you pointed out that "Pilosophy is a worthy subject too"
Also I don't think that i have to critisize bytie. He didn't have the generalizing arguments.

The thing with the terminator:
This was when I wanted to critisize that there are no "borders" or "rules" for science. Then such things may be the results. If you can not accept the truth then dont yell at me.

I thought you are above such style of disscussing.

If you think my style ofdiscussing is not "mature" enough for you you do not have to awnser.

But if you considder your prejudices mature then good night ...

I think I'm finished with this topic. There are enough people here who think like me and I think I don't need to let you call my discussion "not your level" when yours isn't mine too.

Tolerance is a behavor suggested by the bible too. Think about it.

[LAST POST IN THIS TOPIC]

#45 Roeoender

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 10:19 AM

Come on I wrote about Philosophy as a one interesting subject to study in your life. It wasn't an arguement for anything.
Sure, I visited church regurarly for many years in my childhood, I live in a country of 99% declared Roman-Catholics (so The Church feels really confident in my country and clerics can say what they really think).
Quote myself:

Generally I tried to say smthing beyond trivial (tolerance and all those basic things that everyone agrees on).

Obvious:I never wrote that I judge people by their religion.
Obvious:I treat people which I meet indyvidually.
Obvious:If you want to say something about a group (this was about people following any religion) which isn't trivial you just have to generalize a bit.
I just tried to skip this boring part that every one knows and agrees upon.

Well, describe people in Poland without being general and without hurting individuality of anyone in my country.

The philosophy statement was CLEARLY directed at you

Yes but this stuff was CLEARLY not pointed at YOU (it was for Bytie, read his post to get the context of my reply to him and understand it correctly)

Also I don't think that i have to critisize bytie. He didn't have the generalizing arguments.

And that is a mess you really got lost in those posts.

The stuff about Terminator is still fuzzy for me:
1. I wrote that in science there are no dogmas.
2. You wrote about "Ethnic" (not ethic ;)) limitations of science
3. Asked about a creation of a cyborg.
Well ethics doesn't limit science in a sense: "cloning is disapproved by God thus it would never be possible to clone human".
So it is not a hard/built-in limitation like as "no material thing can travel faster than light".
In one culture something is forbidden on other is quite ordinary.
If I say that science has no dogmas I am not saying that it shouldn't be controlled.
Human civ. isn't prepared for many inventions,
but then again one day having computer implants could be an ordinary thing (just like other habits common nowadays would have been shocking in 18 century).

If you think my style ofdiscussing is not "mature" enough for you you do not have to awnser.

I was just disappointed by your unconstructive answer, that you tried to find "a hole in a whole" (a polish saying), and that you didn't want to understand what I wrote.

Tolerance is a behavor suggested by the bible too. Think about it.

Tolerance is well understood, common value across europe (and many other regions) thus I thought elaborating on this wasn't necessary.

Roeoender.

#46 CrimsonCasio

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 12:31 PM

dang it, im still reading 2072's links, slow down! ;)

anyway, i'll just interject that that i dont really have a problem with cloning in a religious sence for various reasons, but i see a very real negative social effect... for one thing, any clone could comit a crime without the original (or another clone) knowing, and they might get blamed (especially if they were cloned withouth their knowlege), also, the value of human life would pulmet to the cost of making a clone of that person... so murder might eventually be punishable with a small fine. that doesnt sit right with me and i think you'll all agree.

#47 huhn_m

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Posted 16 November 2004 - 01:22 PM

I have nothing against therapeuthic (spelling?) cloning but for sure against "making a perfect human" or "making a baby out of a catalog". (I want one with blonde hair and so on). Because of this I think science should be controlled (but not be limited too much!).

Sorry about the misselling with "ethnic" I think it caused some confusion.

I think I see your point now roe and it actually does make sense.
I just thought you were intollerant and thus misunderstood your statements.

"no material thing can travel faster than light".

we are not this far yet in physics but is this really a fixed limitation? Or is it just an assumption?

#48 2072

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 09:55 PM

well the faster you travel the higher your mass is and if you travel at the speed of light you have an infinite mass so no energy could ever make you move faster...

This has been proved.

Maybe we can travel through enormous distants using Warp drives or Slipstreams :rolleyes:

Btw: What do you think about the link I posted?

#49 Orwell

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Posted 20 November 2004 - 10:39 PM

well the faster you travel the higher your mass is

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't forget however that his size will tend to zero :P

#50 Killer83Z

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Posted 21 November 2004 - 08:41 PM

Btw in many religions (like in Islam) people are often motivated by the great reward that they'll get for good deeds and that they'll be punished for the bad.
Is it ethical to do smthing just because you'll be rewarded?
OR: Recall what children do when they know that parents aren't watching?
How would many "believers" behave if they'd got to know that God doesn't exist or that people don't have "soul"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


About the first part - the reward for good deeds has a "karma" quality. That means you will get the reward in the afterlife. If you do good things on earth, you should be open to receive nothing in return, even be punished or treated bad. Still, the thing you do is right and will make you a better person.

This idea is nothing to complain about.

Second: Believers will never feel like a child without supervision and will thus always take care of their actions. Not bad either, right?

By the way, I do not feel like discussing the big complex because I strongly think that religion and faith is a very personal thing. With that I'm also in conflict with organized religion. I just found that paragraph worth to be refocused.

#51 flyingfisch

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:16 PM

Necropost! :P

I do believe in God and go to church every Sunday.
  • Viliami likes this

#52 Forty-Two

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:38 AM

I believe that the Universe allows for the existence of a god.

On the quantum scale, everything is about probability. There are some fundamental rules that cannot be broken in reactions (Such as the conservation of energy and spin), but there are millions of combinations that can result from even one interaction. There is also a chance that the reaction may not even take place at all. This means that seemingly impossible feats, such as levitation, invisibility, and appearing objects are possible if enough particles have unlikely outcomes. All this, while seeming random to us, could be controlled by an extraplanar being. 4

(Aside from this, I do believe in god)

"What do insomniac agnostic dyslexics wonder about late at night?"

"Is there a dog?"

That is not a religion, there is no invisible God to fear/believe in.


Buddhism/Confucianism

#53 flyingfisch

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:43 PM

I believe in God because I am a Catholic and because it is logical.

Something cannot come from nothing.

Therefore, the universe could not have evolved as there would have had to have been some matter initially. This matter would have had to have been created.

So some being has to have at least made that matter. This being would have to be eternal because if it were not, something else would have had to make it.

I believe that God created our universe, and all the laws (conservation of energy, etc.), and that God created time. Therefore, he existed before he created the universe, and where he exists there is no time. Therefore it is possible for Him to be eternal.

BTW, I believe that God created the earth, not that he started an evolution.

#54 Forty-Two

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:10 PM

I believe in God because it is logical.

Something cannot come from nothing.

yes it could have

Therefore, the universe could not have evolved as there would have had to have been some matter initially.

false

This matter would have had to have been created.

Matter can be neither created nor destroyed. However, when an equal energy of antimatter is produced, no net change occors, so you end up with some new antimatter/matter.

So some being has to have at least made that matter. This being would have to be eternal because if it were not, something else would have had to make it.

I believe that God created our universe, and all the laws (conservation of energy, etc.), and that God created time. Therefore, he existed before he created the universe, and where he exists there is no time. Therefore it is possible for Him to be eternal.

BTW, I believe that God created the earth, not that he started an evolution.


Evolution is a good way to create a bunch of stuff without too much effort. All god has to do is make sure certain mutations happen at the right times, and he can have any damn thing he wants.

#55 flyingfisch

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 04:29 PM

yes it could have


Explain how something comes from nothing, please.

#56 Forty-Two

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:11 PM

Explain how something comes from nothing, please.


My lower comment.

#57 flyingfisch

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:42 AM

Matter can be neither created nor destroyed. However, when an equal energy of antimatter is produced, no net change occors, so you end up with some new antimatter/matter.


But conservation of energy says energy and matter are proportional. You can't create energy either.

(E=mc^2)

#58 Forty-Two

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:08 PM

But conservation of energy says energy and matter are proportional. You can't create energy either.

(E=mc^2)


It seems that you need to brush up on some of your quantum mechanics: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Quantum_foam

#59 flyingfisch

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:48 AM

no one has proved that quantum foam exists.

#60 Forty-Two

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:39 AM

no one has proved that quantum foam exists.


Explain http://en.wikipedia....wking_radiation

#61 flyingfisch

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 03:06 AM

Quantum foam is a THING. Energy is CREATED. Now, imagine nothing. No energy. No matter. No quantum foam. No anti-matter. No TIME. And you're telling me that it is possible to create all these prerequisites from nothing without being God?

#62 Forty-Two

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:02 PM

Quantum foam is a THING. Energy is CREATED. Now, imagine nothing. No energy. No matter. No quantum foam. No anti-matter. No TIME. And you're telling me that it is possible to create all these prerequisites from nothing without being God?


It can: http://en.wikipedia....ropic_principle @WAP (Specifically B&T's version)

#63 flyingfisch

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:02 AM

Read the criticisms section of the same article.


Also, if there is nothing in a universe, then the universe would be described by its contents, which is nothing, which means you have either an empty universe or none at all.

Which brings me back to my previous question: How do you create a universe while not being God?

#64 Forty-Two

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:12 AM

Read the criticisms section of the same article.


Also, if there is nothing in a universe, then the universe would be described by its contents, which is nothing, which means you have either an empty universe or none at all.
Thji
Which brings me back to my previous question: How do you create a universe while not being God?


No fucking idea. Since time before the universe is relatively unexplored, I cannot give a definite answer at the moment. When we have more information, we will be able to determine its method of existence.

I believe in the weak anthropic theory (we observe the universe with its contents in this way because it had these constants which created observers). This is the simplest and most rational theory for why the universe is as it is.

Anyway, I never said that god did not create the universe. I specifically said that the universe has the proper framework to allow a god to influence it in substantial ways. Where there is unknown, god may be there.

#65 jinzihao

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:58 PM

As a Chinese, It's quite interesting for me to read about your opinions on God.
I think most Chinese are agnosticists (not atheists), so am I.
In my opinion, I can't prove there is God, neither can I prove there is no God, and even top scientists cannot prove if there is God or not. So God is like a math conjecture, but not a theorem. In this way, I don't really care about if there is God or not, since today's science can nearly flawlessly explain all the natural phenomenons.
Besides, I do wonder how do those scientists think of God, such as physicists or biologists.

#66 2072

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 03:18 PM

Read this amazing short story by Isaac Asimov (it's only 3000 words). It's called "The Last Question". It's very pertaining to this discussion.
Don't skip to the end, it would spoil everything.
In my opinion it's one of the best science fiction short story ever written.

http://www.multivax....t_question.html



#67 Casimo

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:08 PM

I do not believe in god.

Edited by Casimo, 06 January 2013 - 02:08 PM.


#68 louloux

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:19 PM

yes, i attend church each week-end

Edited by Forty-Two, 06 January 2013 - 06:01 PM.
please do not use colors/fonts/sizes/backgrounds in posts without good reason


#69 naib864

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:44 PM

I belive in god.
I go to church 2-3* per month, because I'm confirmand and my confirmation is in march.

#70 flyingfisch

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:05 AM

I belive in god.
I go to church 2-3* per month, because I'm confirmand and my confirmation is in march.


You're catholic?

#71 naib864

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:35 AM

Oh no, my dictionary had say something wrong! Or you had mixed up communion and confirmation. I'm evangelical.

#72 flyingfisch

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 01:50 AM

Oh no, my dictionary had say something wrong! Or you had mixed up communion and confirmation. I'm evangelical.


No, we just have confirmation in the catholic church also, so I wasn't sure. ;)

#73 naib864

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:11 AM

This is strange. In germany this call "Konfirmation" by the evangelicals. And the Catholic call this Kommunion".

#74 flyingfisch

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:07 PM

No, catholics have both. Communion is receiving christ, confirmation is receiving the Holy Ghost's grace and becoming a soldier of christ.

#75 naib864

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:12 PM

This fact I don't know. Tell me more about.

#76 Casimo

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:51 AM

It does not care whether god exists or not. We are on our own.


  • naib864 likes this

#77 2072

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:21 AM

ha thanks for resurrecting this topic.

This song is my teasing answer:


(note that this song is rather against the atrocities done in the name of God through religions than against the hypothesis of God itself)

I'm going to see them tomorrow :)


Here is another nice song from the same album still against the neurosis religion can cause to someone:




And to finish, one of my favourite, one about reincarnation (that's my interpretation):



#78 calcgirl

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 06:46 PM

Definitely a Hot topic for the whole of human existence!!!!!



#79 Viliami

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 11:49 AM

Necropost.

I believe that God exists. I don't think we'll ever know who/what/where/how he came from but I believe he exists.

My theory of his existence (not proof, just a thought) is that he is living in a dimension higher than us, and we'll never truly understand him.

It will be like 2D beings trying to understand a cube.

 

Another thought is that we're all living in one big complex simulation, and God coded everything, which is where the rules of physics came from.



#80 Krtyski

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 03:50 AM

necropost too

 

I believe in person who believes in god. I respect someone's religion.

 

I, myself usually do not believe any existence of god. Importantly I have clear my own philosophy to live and share this way of thinking and doing with my family (this is most important to all of my family).

 

To be honest, sometime when I had very hard time, I wanted to believe in god. But changing myself always helped me.

When I visited Nortre-Dame Basilica several times in Montreal, I almost believed in existence of God because of its circumstance every time.


Edited by Krtyski, 16 December 2016 - 03:52 AM.





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