31 replies to this topic

[weatherhead]

Hi all, I'm new here so I'll introduce myself
I'm a student in the UK who will be starting at cambridge doing natsci in 2008, after a year work experience in engineering/research industry.

I currently have quite a lot of spare money which is a rarity, so I'm thinking of purchasing myself a new uber-calculator which I want to see me through for many happy years of calculations.

I'm currently considering - classpad 300, TI-89, HP-50g. In the UK I can get all of these, from http://www.calculators-online.co.uk.
the CP is the most expensive of the 3, followed by the TI89 then the HP.

I probably won't be doing many basic calculations (arithmetic, basic matrices, linear regression) on this calc, since my trusty FX-991ES is fantastic in this respect.
I am thinking to also try and acquire the classpad OS 3.0, which you can't seem to buy from any dealer in the UK , I'm sure I could get hold of it somehow.

Anyway, the things I want to be able to do on my new calc:

• deal with very big numbers (i.e bigger than the 10^99 you can get on standard scientific calcs)
• draw nice big clear graphs (i.e cp's big screen is an advantage) and plot statistical data like scatter diagram, box plot etc
• do fairly basic statistics stuff like normal distribution, confidence intervals, binomial distribution
• handle quantities with units (I work only in SI not imperial, I don't think I absolutely need something as full as the HP's unit support. I would want some kind of built in convertor and constants table)
• enter lots of data in lists or tables and then transfer to my computer in a usable format - I work only on <{GNULINUX}> with one windows install which I use only for music making.
• do simple programming in a language which even a physicist can understand and learn
• enter things in a friendly style display (I got addicted to the textbook entry on the 991, don't want any of this sqrt(2) nonsense

big demands I know, and looking round, it seems to me that the CP fails on some things like the units, and the <{GNULINUX}> support seems non-existant. I am very tempted by that big screen and stylus control, and of course the casio textbook entry system. and yes I have tried RPN BTW, for quite a long time, and I never got into it. The HP and TI both seem to be not as good as the CP in terms of the "pretty print" i.e you have to enter an equation editor or something to get it.
However, HP and TI seem to be streets ahead with the statistics and computer interfacing, and the units. I know I can interface a TI with my computer, because I do it already. I know I can interface a HP with my computer, because it uses SD cards. The classpad seems to be an unknown quantity. No one seems to have posted much about <{GNULINUX}> support for it.
Given that I'm also a free software fanatic, I find it disgusting that casio is trying to charge for this new OS update. I would be willing to pay for it though, if you could only buy it in the uk. hah.

Thanks for reading my post, ladies and gentlemen. Please could you give me some advice on which calc you'd recommend for my wants?

[The_AFX_Master]

Welcome to the UCF .. We are here to help you

All the functions that you listed before (except the unit handling) are on the classpad

- Using lists and tables is easy, You have an spreadsheet and a statistics module on the calc
-The natural textbook + notes and so (mathcad style imput) are present both in main aplication and in eActivity aplication, The eActivity ables you to merge text, formulas, programs, images, spreadsheet and geometry, (at least all the functions of the calc) all in one document-type imput. afaik, there isn't a resembling app on HP's or TI's
-You can program it on 3 Languages: C++ (with the sdk, and a PC), CP Lua (an app with a PC editor and in-calc editor, relly fast), and the default basic language (editor in-calc, or PC. but slower)

LUA is a very efficient programming way for a calculator, and is EASY to learn.. not the non-human HP UserRPL, or the weak and slow TI Basic. so, i can conclude that the CP is the most suitable calc for programming on the market now. The only lack, the absense of common engineering programs (As the long HP-TI libraries on the web)

The calc have 5mb on flash ROM, to install apps and store eactivities, and 512Kb RAM (more than the 89 titanium and the HP). The calc is rock stable, in a year of heavy user, i NEVER lost one byte by sistem errors, and any operation you start is able to be stopped without problems (As HP's, and their non stop problems). Resetting the calc with the P button doesnt derive on a memory lost, is only a reboot (as a pc when you press reset).

The only issue is that for sure you will need a Windows XP (already you did it) small install on your PC in order to transfer from\to the calc

Hope that helps

[weatherhead]

thanks very much for the comments AFX_Master

The stability thing is something I hadn't thought about too much, thanks for highlighting that. I hate software crashing on me all the time, that's why I don't use winblows

I had a look at Lua and yes even though the only languages I know are pascal, VBA and javascript it definitely looks accessible for me to use.
I guess I can stretch to having the transfer program on my windows install (or get it to work with wine), the main thing that worries me with it is will I be able to export to "proper" formats for the data so I can use in <{GNULINUX}> applications - e.g OASIS opendoc or microsoft excel or even csv?

One thing that concerns me about the calc: no support for engineering notation? surely that has to be something fairly easy to implement.

I like the flexibility with the calc and eActivity and so on. I mean, I am still a student after all not a professional engineer or scientist (not yet, anyway!).

I think I have ruled out the HP calc, I'm now just considering between the CP and the TI. I know that the TI can easily interface straight with <{GNULINUX}>. The CP does seem to me to be a better and more versatile calc though.

Thanks again for the reply... anyone else got comments?

[far2055]

Check LNA too. It is really great for numeric calculation.

I don't think any calculator in the world can do what LNA can really do! (sorry for my English! )

[PAP]

it seems to me that the CP fails on some things like the units, and the <{GNULINUX}> support seems non-existant.

Unfortunately, yes. <{GNULINUX}> support for the ClassPad is non-existant. This is not surprising, given that Casio's support is generally unefficient (I use the word "unefficient" just to be polite).

Given that I'm also a free software fanatic, I find it disgusting that casio is trying to charge for this new OS update.

You are right, it is disgusting. Nobody here in UCF likes it.

I work only on <{GNULINUX}> with one windows install which I use only for music making.

You don't need Window$ for music making. Just buy a cheap USB Midi interface, and use Rosegarden as a software sequencer . Rosegarden is an excellent sequencer, similar to Cubase, and it's totally free.

I had a look at Lua and yes even though the only languages I know are pascal, VBA and javascript it definitely looks accessible for me to use.

Yes, Lua is easy to learn, and CPLua programs are very fast, compared to CPBasic. Lua is certainly not a language for mathematical programs, but nevertheless it can be used for that purpose (I did it already plenty of times). If you are interested on mathematical programming, you should also try my LNA library (which is written in CPLua).

I guess I can stretch to having the transfer program on my windows install (or get it to work with wine), the main thing that worries me with it is will I be able to export to "proper" formats for the data so I can use in <{GNULINUX}> applications - e.g OASIS opendoc or microsoft excel or even csv?

The CPLua emulator works with Wine (in my Debian Linux box, at least). However, you will need Window$ just to transfer programs . I don't use the spreadsheet too much, but as far as I know, you cannot directly export data to the PC.

Check LNA too. It is really great for numeric calculation.
I don't think any calculator in the world can do what LNA can really do! (sorry for my English! )

Wow, thank you, far2055. Another happy LNA user!

[weatherhead]

You don't need Window$ for music making. Just buy a cheap USB Midi interface, and use Rosegarden as a software sequencer wink2.gif. Rosegarden is an excellent sequencer, similar to Cubase, and it's totally free.

Are you into making music as well PAP?
I do tend to agree. I currently work with ardour and rosegarden in my setup. I'm getting more and more used to this, but it's taking a while to get rid of cubase (despite its appaling MIDI timing ). I have been writing projects in that since I was 11 and cannot export them easily to anything else

As you say, rosegarden is an immense project though.

my setup:
dual M-audio delta 66 interfaces
m-audio MIDIsport 2*2
behringer BCF-2000 as the control surface
CME UF6 keyboard
soundcraft spirit mixer
SM pR8 preamps
behringer bass V-amp pro
edirol monitors
synths: roland D-50 (wahey), yamaha TG-55, korg NX5R.

as you can see, all the money I ever get (apart from that for my new calc) I spend on music making equipment . It all works on <{GNULINUX}> now as well Unfortunately, looks like I won't make the full move over to <{GNULINUX}> for a while longer now, if I buy the CP. I am also checking out the LNA library, can't test thoroughly till I trial the classpad manager software.

Does anyone have either of the other calcs mentioned in my original post? TI-89 or hp-50g? How would you rate them against the classpad?

p.s even if there is no classpad support for <{GNULINUX}>, does anyone know how the connection and transfer works? i.e Xmodem protocol or something

[PAP]

Are you into making music as well PAP?

Yes!

I do tend to agree. I currently work with ardour and rosegarden in my setup. I'm getting more and more used to this, but it's taking a while to get rid of cubase (despite its appaling MIDI timing ). I have been writing projects in that since I was 11 and cannot export them easily to anything else
As you say, rosegarden is an immense project though.

Rosegarden is very close to Cubase. You can easily export to a MIDI file (do you really need more export options?). The only problem is that your keyboard(s) must be supported by Rosegarden (if not, you can always use it as a standard midi or midi 2 keyboard). Even if your keyboard is not supported, you can create a Rosegarden keyboard setup file rather easily. You need your keyboard's manual for this, and about one afternoon for experiments (maybe more, if you are not familiar with hexadecimal numbers). I have a Roland RS-9 full keyboard, and an old Yamaha TX-81 FM-synthesis rack; both are not supported by Rosegarden, but I have written the setup files, and everything works perfectly now. You can do the same. See Rosegarden's manual for details on how to setup a keyboard (or PM me for hints).

my setup:
dual M-audio delta 66 interfaces
m-audio MIDIsport 2*2
behringer BCF-2000 as the control surface
CME UF6 keyboard
soundcraft spirit mixer
SM pR8 preamps
behringer bass V-amp pro
edirol monitors
synths: roland D-50 (wahey), yamaha TG-55, korg NX5R.

Wow, great setup, indeed.

Unfortunately, looks like I won't make the full move over to <{GNULINUX}> for a while longer now, if I buy the CP.

Yes, switching to Window$ just for transfering files from (or to) the ClassPad is annoying. However, it happens only rarely to me.

I am also checking out the LNA library, can't test thoroughly till I trial the classpad manager software.

Try the CPLua emulator: just unzip CPLua to a directory, then unzip the file CPVC.zip into this directory. After that, you will have a full CPLua emulator, where you can load the LNA image and test it. You can also write and test your own Lua programs in the emulator . If you don't have time for this, you can try the LNA examples, which are well documented in the LNA manual, or you can run the script DemoAll which demonstrates all LNA capabilities .

Does anyone have either of the other calcs mentioned in my original post? TI-89 or hp-50g? How would you rate them against the classpad?

I don't have these calcs, so I'm not sure. Several forumers reported that they have a better CAS than ClassPad, but this is not necessarily true with CP OS 3.0.

p.s even if there is no classpad support for <{GNULINUX}>, does anyone know how the connection and transfer works? i.e Xmodem protocol or something

In theory, it can certainly be done, but I haven't any clue on how to do that. I have a feeling that such a project will need a lot of time, since the connection and transfer protocols are not documented, to the best of my knowledge.

[weatherhead]

thanks for the advice about trying out CPlua, I am going to do that today.
As to the thing about cubase, there is no way of exporting a full project (i.e not just MIDI data, but audio data and effects plugin settings and mix automation etc) and then importing it into another sequencer. There is a format called OMF (open media format) that gets quite close but it doesn't handle VST effects and so on. However, rosegarden can't import OMF yet I don't think!
The problem is that I don't just use MIDI data and synths: I record my live band with this setup as well - drumkit, bass, keyboards, guitar, vocals. So I can't just export it to a MIDI file and then import it into rosegarden. Shame.

[PAP]

thanks for the advice about trying out CPlua, I am going to do that today.

Good luck. If you have any questions on CPLua, there are several forumers here ready to help, including me. Keep in mind that the emulator is faster than the real thing, but nevertheless CPLua is much faster than CPBasic.

As to the thing about cubase, there is no way of exporting a full project (i.e not just MIDI data, but audio data and effects plugin settings and mix automation etc) and then importing it into another sequencer. There is a format called OMF (open media format) that gets quite close but it doesn't handle VST effects and so on. However, rosegarden can't import OMF yet I don't think!
The problem is that I don't just use MIDI data and synths: I record my live band with this setup as well - drumkit, bass, keyboards, guitar, vocals. So I can't just export it to a MIDI file and then import it into rosegarden. Shame.

Indeed, a full project including audio cannot be imporeted in Rosegarden so far. I had never had a similar problem, because I usually don't use audio (everything in my music is simply midi signals: no vocals, no accoustic instruments, only digital effects). Btw, Roland RS-9's grand piano is fantastic (practically equivalent to a real piano, with heavy "living" keys, not just plastic buttons). I don't know about D-50, TG-55, or NX5R.

[weatherhead]

the TG-55 and NX5R are just modules, no keyboards.
The D-50 and CME UF6 both have synth action keyboards which I am ok with, but anytime I need to play in a proper piano part I "borrow" my mum's roland KR-7 and store the MIDI on a floppy disk! Crude, but effective.

Anyway, a question about the classpad: is there an easy way to draw the graph of a plane (e.g 3x+2y+7z=4), and then to draw a vector in the same space?
Using the classpad manager trial version I have got this far:

go into "main" window and type in "3x+2y+7z=4"
then I tried to drag this into a "3d-graph" window, but it didn't work. I wasn't really expecting it to, since it only seems to graph functions of z.

so then I did solve(ans,z) to rearrange for z. I dragged the answer onto the 3d graph window and it draws the plane.

Now, say I want to draw the parametric line
r=[ 1 3 2] + a[3 4 1] on the window, what is the easiest way to do this?
or if I wanted to just draw a position vector on it e.g [10 3 2]

[jklasdf]

Does anyone have either of the other calcs mentioned in my original post? TI-89 or hp-50g? How would you rate them against the classpad?

This is predominately a casio calculator forum, which is why most people are probably more knowledgeable and supportive of casio calculators. As a hp-50g user, I'll try to give a comparison of the hp's and ti's that you mention.

Anyway, the things I want to be able to do on my new calc:
deal with very big numbers (i.e bigger than the 10^99 you can get on standard scientific calcs)

The hp-50g supports infinite precision integers (within the limits of its memory) while in exact mode and exponents up to 10^499 in numeric mode. The ti-89 has similar integer support in exact mode, although I'm not sure how large of a number it supports in numeric mode. Note that although both calculators consider these numbers to be "integers", the division of two integers is still represented exactly, so you effectively have infinite precision for rational numbers if needed (calculations become much slower though).

draw nice big clear graphs (i.e cp's big screen is an advantage) and plot statistical data like scatter diagram, box plot etc

The hp-50g has the smallest screen size of the calculators listed and is thus at a disadvantage. Also, stat. plots such as histograms/box plots are a two-step process on the hp, again putting it at a disadvantage.

do fairly basic statistics stuff like normal distribution, confidence intervals, binomial distribution

Both the ti-89 and hp-50g do so with ease.

handle quantities with units (I work only in SI not imperial, I don't think I absolutely need something as full as the HP's unit support. I would want some kind of built in convertor and constants table)

Both the ti and hp support units and unit conversions, although on the hp they are easier to work with. Also both have constant tables which automatically return the unit with the constant asked for.

enter lots of data in lists or tables and then transfer to my computer in a usable format - I work only on <{GNULINUX}> with one windows install which I use only for music making.

Both the ti and the hp support linking with linux, although with the hp, linking with a computer running linux is more complicated (SD cards work well instead). I'm not sure about the ti-89, but all the hp-50g data is stored as a plain-text ascii file. Some text processing might be needed to remove the header though, and some characters used by the calculator that are not available in ascii are represented with a combination of characters.

do simple programming in a language which even a physicist can understand and learn

I think the programming language built in on all three calculators are fairly easy to understand and use for the short quick programs that they are meant to write. Among these though hp's userRPL is probably the furthest from traditional BASIC, but still fairly easy to learn. Lua support on the Classpad was mentioned, and the hp-50g also has Lua ported to it. Since gcc has also been targeted to ti's 6800k series of calculators--like the ti89--a port of Lua to the ti-89 would probably be fairly trivial. Nonetheless, I think that the built in language on each calculator would probably be the best way to go, because they are easier to input on-calc and allow full access to the calculators built in math and symbolic algebra routines (which are much more complete than Lua's).

enter things in a friendly style display (I got addicted to the textbook entry on the 991, don't want any of this sqrt(2) nonsense

Both the hp and ti support "textbook" style display, and using the Equation Writer on the hp is optional: results will be displayed in the textbook style just the same.

The stability thing is something I hadn't thought about too much, thanks for highlighting that. I hate software crashing on me all the time.

The hp-50g is extremely stable and I have never had it crash using any of the built in functions. Nonetheless, unofficial programs programmed in assembly or sysRPL (not easily accessible by the casual user), especially if they are programmed by an inexperienced programmer, may result in the calculator crashing or even loss of memory in RAM. I'm pretty sure this is the same with casio's or ti's.

(As HP's, and their non stop problems). Resetting the calc with the P button doesnt derive on a memory lost, is only a reboot (as a pc when you press reset).

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, but again, the hp-50g should never crash under normal operation.

Some things you might not have considered yet: Although it wasn't mentioned, in general ti's and casio's are considered to be much easier to use, especially as a student. Also, the majority of teachers and users will probably be using ti's, making finding help for casio's and hp's more difficult. Furthermore, as an hp user, I can testify to the fact that the current generation of calculators' manuals suck. It is really more of a "quick start" guide and you will have to go online to get the full manual and Advanced User's Reference.

Also, it is important to note that ti has the largest userbase and not suprisingly the largest amount of programs developed for it (see ti calc), with hp having the second largest amount of programs (see hp calc), and with the casio being the newest and having the smallest application base.

Finally, good luck with whatever calculator you do end up choosing (all three of them should serve you well), but make sure you get the latest version of each. (In addition to more ram, the ti-89 Titanium will receive official rom updates for stuff like indefinite integrals that the ti-89 will never support officially. The keyboard of the hp-50g is much better than any calculator in the hp-49 series or the hp-48gii although they may look similar, and its 4 batteries will outlast the others' 3 [sounds stupid, but it is really significant in real life to have batteries last longer]. You seem to already know the advantages of the newest Classpad.)

For more information on the ti-89 and hp-50g, visit this comparison between the two calculators by Al Borowski, but understand that he is fairly biased in favor of the hp (this is clearly stated on his site). Both the calculators compared are older models, but they are functionally equivalent to the new ones (aside from some stuff like implicit differentiation on the ti-89 titanium for which there will never be a rom update for the regular ti-89---the hp49g+ and the hp50g use the exact same roms).

[kucalc]

Also, it is important to note that ti has the largest userbase and not suprisingly the largest amount of programs developed for it (see ti calc), with hp having the second largest amount of programs (see hp calc), and with the casio being the newest and having the smallest application base.

CASIO the newest? CASIO invented the graphing calculator. Without CASIO, you wouldn't be having TI and HP graphing calculators. HP and TI strongly believed that scientific calculators would be the future in accessible computations back then. It wasn't until later that they found that graphing calculators can actually be a great tool. Take a look at the TI-81, open it up and compare it to the fx-7000g. The hardware is almost identical. Could it be that TI copied CASIO technology?

Now, about the number of programs for CASIO calculators. Planet Casio and Jeuxcasio combined, already totals over 1000 programs archived. Add also the UCF File Share, CasioKingdom, Brian Hetricks Casio Corner, Charlie Watson's programs, caspro's pages, etc, etc. Because the CASIO community doesn't have a centralized database of programs like TIcalc and HPcalc, we do however have a main forum for the CASIO community which serves a greater purpose. I don't see the TI community have a main forum. As a result of using their domain for a database, there situation is the opposite of us. They have numerous TI forums and are loosely connected...

[jklasdf]

Sorry, I should have been more specific.

and with the casio being the newest

By "the casio", I meant the casio classpad and not casio graphing calculators in general.

[weatherhead]

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

In the end I went ahead and bought a classpad, because I found one for a very good price on ebay (?89.99). It has impressed me in many ways, but I certainly would recommend anyone buying one to get OS 3.0, compared to the OS provided with the calc it feels like a different machine!

I am disappointed by it in just a couple of ways :- the lack of engineering notation is annoying me more than I expected, even though I knew about this already. Surely to god this has to be something fairly easy to implement? Secondly, the official type "unit convertor and constants" add - in could be a LOT more useful. I hope that by the time I need to be seriously using this calc day to day (end of 2008), I or someone else will have written progs to sort these issues. Overall, I am very pleased with the calc. I am not prepared to abandon my trusty TI-83 yet, though!

THanks again all.

[neanderix]

I'm currently considering - classpad 300, TI-89, HP-50g. In the UK I can get all of these, from http://www.calculators-online.co.uk.
the CP is the most expensive of the 3, followed by the TI89 then the HP.

I probably won't be doing many basic calculations (arithmetic, basic matrices, linear regression) on this calc, since my trusty FX-991ES is fantastic in this respect.
I am thinking to also try and acquire the classpad OS 3.0, which you can't seem to buy from any dealer in the UK , I'm sure I could get hold of it somehow.

Anyway, the things I want to be able to do on my new calc:

• deal with very big numbers (i.e bigger than the 10^99 you can get on standard scientific calcs)
• draw nice big clear graphs (i.e cp's big screen is an advantage) and plot statistical data like scatter diagram, box plot etc
• do fairly basic statistics stuff like normal distribution, confidence intervals, binomial distribution
• handle quantities with units (I work only in SI not imperial, I don't think I absolutely need something as full as the HP's unit support. I would want some kind of built in convertor and constants table)
• enter lots of data in lists or tables and then transfer to my computer in a usable format - I work only on <{GNULINUX}> with one windows install which I use only for music making.
• do simple programming in a language which even a physicist can understand and learn
• enter things in a friendly style display (I got addicted to the textbook entry on the 991, don't want any of this sqrt(2) nonsense

big demands I know, and looking round, it seems to me that the CP fails on some things like the units, and the <{GNULINUX}> support seems non-existant.

For those effords i can strongly recommend the HP50G. I own both, the HP (but it's predecessor, the 49G) and the Classpad - the calc i use most, is the HP for i don't just like the RPN - I love it

Another important argument is the big library of ready-to use programs u can find in the internet - the most important place for this ist www.hpcalc.org, so in most cases you won't have to program by yourself.

And: the HP's memory can be increased by plugging in an SD-Card, and it accepts SD-Cards with more than 2GB - that should be enough to have alle required programs any time available

The classpad isn't a bad calc, anyway, but in my opinion it ist poory documented and poorly supported by Casio.

So if i had to decide wether to by the HP OR the CP i always would decide for the HP.

Volker

[neanderix]

CASIO the newest? CASIO invented the graphing calculator. Without CASIO, you wouldn't be having TI and HP graphing calculators.

Maybe. But it's a fact that, until CP OS 3.0, HP and TI had the best CAS on calcs.

centralized database of programs like TIcalc and HPcalc, we do however have a main forum for the CASIO community which serves a greater purpose. I don't see the TI community have a main forum.

Cant say anything about TI regarding this topic but for HP-Calcs there IS a centralized discussionplace - not a forum, but a newsgroup on the usenet: comp.sys.hp48
and unlike the name of this group may make you suppose, it deals not only with the 48/48S/SX/G/GX but also with the 49, 49G, 49G+ 50G and even users of former HP calcs such as the 41/41C/CV/CX or the 28/28S are welcome there.

Volker

[PAP]

i don't just like the RPN - I love it

[Kilburn]

You are a masochist.

[The_AFX_Master]

mega LOL!

[kucalc]

I am not prepared to abandon my trusty TI-83 yet, though!

I can tell you for sure that even a fx-9860G can out-perform the TI-83 and the fx-9860G only costs $80...

And: the HP's memory can be increased by plugging in an SD-Card, and it accepts SD-Cards with more than 2GB - that should be enough to have alle required programs any time available

Casio fx-9860 has a SD card slot also....

[The_AFX_Master]

Well... What about to converting the calc into an IPod?.. 2gb + Headphone jack +com protocol.. Then we will kick apple on the nuts

[vanhoa]

I know it is not difficult . But I dont know much about electric, so...

[kucalc]

Well... What about to converting the calc into an IPod?.. 2gb + Headphone jack +com protocol.. Then we will kick apple on the nuts

LOL!!!

When CASIO releases support for serial communications protocol in the next SDK, I'll do that!

[afshin_electronic]

wowwww!!!!

look at that cool TI!!! look at it's specifivations!! memory & flash!!! a dual core cpu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

is that as user friendly as classpad!!! and as powerful as TI-89 Titanium??!!

do anybody knows the price of that coooooool thing?!

[neanderix]

You are a masochist.

No, I'm not. Just give it a try during all days work - and you'll see that you'll do your work much faster than whith AOS and similar logics.
I once couldn't believe this, like you. Therefore, I had calcs like TI-59, and then a Sharp PC 1500 (one of the first BASIC Handhelds) until I buyed my first HP in 1989 (a HP 28S). Can't be a fault 'cause you can use it in algebraic notation too, i thought.
After a weekend playing with it i never used it in algebraic!

Volker
who, besides, likes his CP 300 too

[The_AFX_Master]

RPN isn`t a "natural and revolutionary" form of input, isn`t intuitive and easy as their users claim. RPN is an old, archaic, paleozoic, pre big bang technique that allow easy data input from the perspective of the computer, not the user, that`s intended to reduce the computer stress and increase the user stress.. that`s all, HP is fooling you all saying that RPN is the last Coca-Cola on the desert..

HP have tradition to be a lazy company, (not the comunity, instead). Is so lazy that the new 50g series aren`t more than a ARM9 @75mhz emulating a paleozoic saturn (48g series) @4mhz (or so). At least Casio (with all their flaws), comes with decent hardware, and new software specifically written for that hardware.

So, thinking that RPN is "the" method to do inputs, for sure, yo know nothing about heavy using of a calculator, RPN could be efficient to construct formulas from scratch, but isn`t the method to do some iterations and to do some sequence calculations. See mathcad, a real numerical analysis and CAS for engineers and so, You see RPN here?, no. Because isn`t easy to adapt to continuos calculus using formulas (because the stack empties..).

See the common programming languages, C++, Fortran, Lua, Java.... Are they stack based?, no.. C++ is the most tricky of all i mentioned, and have far more readability than a RPL piece of code. we don`t think backwards.. 2+2 is 4, not 2 enter 2 enter +.

BTW: A joke from "if the computer companies made toasters"

"If HP made toasters: They built the Reverse Polish Toaster, in that you put a slice of toasted bread, and the machine returns a slice of regular bread. If you need your toasted bread, you call HP support, and then they send you a ton of carbonized bread in two months"

btw, i was a 49g+ user, and i hate that thing. Is the worst calculator ever made. EVER

[PAP]

RPN is an old, archaic, paleozoic, pre big bang technique that allow easy data input from the perspective of the computer, not the user, that`s intended to reduce the computer stress and increase the user stress..

Indeed, Age of Empires (and the rest games of the series) should be renamed to "Age of RPNs" .
If you know Mathematica, you will like this: Using RPN instead of CPLua is like using the Mathematica command Times[a,Plus[b,c]] instead of a*(b+c). They are both correct, but the latter is much more simpler, while the former is for pure masochists.
Another one: Using RPN or CPBasic instead of CPLua is like playing Doom 1 or Doom 2 instead of Half_Life 2.

[The_AFX_Master]

Another one: Using RPN or CPBasic instead of CPLua is like playing Doom 1 or Doom 2 instead of Half_Life 2.

PAP, you hit my weak point! (see my avatar )
in fact, is better to play HL2 than Doom 1, Doom 2, CPlua, Basic.. and so! .

Off Topic... I'm waiting the winter for HL2 epsiode 2!...could be with a DirectX10 card

[vanhoa]

Oh no, HL... I hate it because I have never won any of my friends

[The_AFX_Master]

Sorry for the off topic:

Vanhoa we're talking about singleplayer Half Life , so you can pass it trough...

@PAP, Do you know "The Specialists" mod for HL?.. I think that's the FUNNIEST mod for HL, for sure

[kucalc]

in fact, is better to play HL2 than Doom 1, Doom 2, CPlua, Basic.. and so! .

Off Topic... I'm waiting the winter for HL2 epsiode 2!...could be with a DirectX10 card

LOL, Half Life 2 is sooooooooo much better than DOOM obviously. DOOM I & II runs on DOS. I still own the originals! DOOM III has nice graphics, but Half Life 2 graphic's is better still. But I still play DOOM I & II online using ZDaemon.

btw, i was a 49g+ user, and i hate that thing. Is the worst calculator ever made. EVER

It is one of the worst calculators ever due to it's low quality. When you receive the package in the mail, you are so eager to open it you pull the calculator out of it's wrapping and it breaks apart instantly, like a grain of sand... (LOL! )