27 replies to this topic

[weatherhead]

Hi guys, I eventually decided to buy a classpad from ebay but it has not arrived yet.
In the meantime, I have been playing with the trial of classpad manager and the Cplua emulator. I'm not yet up to speed on the lua language, and I can't do C++, but it struck me that it should be fairly easy to once and for all make an app that could at least display an answer in engineering notation (like scientific notation, but exponents as multiples of three), or even better, to take a number as input and output a number with SI prefix i.e 2000 -> 2k, 2000000 -> 2M , etc.

I tried writing something like this, but since I'm no programmer I thought I would use a language I know well... and basically, if it's possible (and relatively simple) in TI basic, it has to be doable on CP....

I am soon going to try translating my prog into a better language that can be made to work on the CP, but to be any use, it really needs to be accessible from the main app, like on a menu or something.... I think this means it needs to be put in as an add-in, and hence needs to be done on the SDK.

Does anyone else want to help?

[npcdoom]

Hi....well if you publish you algorithm i can port it to c++

[Colombia]

I think the solution to this problem is to incorporate the engineering notation in the OS, if anyone make the engineering notation on c++, the user have to get out of the main to run the program .
I think the casio need to add a botton on the virtual keyboard. So we can make the engineering notation.

[Vulpes Virago]

I really like the way my FX-9860G displays numbers when in engineering notation mode, i.e., with the suffixes like u, m, k and M and so on. It makes it so easy to read the answer at a glance when I'm doing my work. If anyone figures out how to do this on the ClassPad, I'd even pay (a small amount) for it. (Sorry, guys. I'm not rich!)

It would, indeed, be a real improvement.

[PAP]

I always wondered what's so special about engineering notation so that everybody wants it implemented...

[The_AFX_Master]

Two options:

1) They're so lazy to remember: 10^9=G, 10^6=M, 10^3=K....

2) Or they work on nanotechnology research, and forget all about picometers, femtometers and such...

For sure, less than 1x10^-30 percent of the users go for the option 2 :

Stop lazyness dudes, there are more important things to program.. isn't it ??

[Colombia]

I prefer to make a useless program as engineering notation that turn the CP into a game machine as so many programer try to do.

[Vulpes Virago]

1) They're so lazy to remember: 10^9=G, 10^6=M, 10^3=K....

I don't appreciate being called lazy. I constantly work with very large and very small numbers. It is much easier to read:

1G

Than it is to read:

1000000000

And how many microvolts is this?

0.000017542

How about this?

1.7542 e^-5

Isn't it much faster and easier to read this?

17.542u

Please- Just because a particular feature does not apply to you, don't call others lazy because they want it. The font on my ClassPad is small, and the display contrast is wanting. (And yes, I know about the bold font. It's not very helpful.) Looking at those little numbers all day gets tiring. Anything that will help me read the results of my computations more easily, quickly and error free is a welcome blessing.

You might as well say that anyone who uses the CAS is lazy, because you can do all that manually. As a matter of fact, you could easily call anyone who uses a calculator lazy.

[The_AFX_Master]

The font on my ClassPad is small, and the display contrast is wanting. (And yes, I know about the bold font. It's not very helpful.) Looking at those little numbers all day gets tiring.

I said you, go for the plus.. you didn't take the advice..

That thing is impossible to do with the CP (At least with the current SDK). the only way is to program it separately, or to get OS 3, and do a little program on basic that needs calls from the main to do the conversion.

By the way, setting your calc in scientific notation is enough.. isn't it?... come on, there are some prefixes to learn, isn't hard.

[Vulpes Virago]

I said you, go for the plus.. you didn't take the advice..

Some folks just can't read, can they?

By the way, setting your calc in scientific notation is enough.. isn't it?... come on, there are some prefixes to learn, isn't hard.

No, sweetheart, it's not hard. I've been using engineering notation for years in my job. But you have to understand that in a professional environment, getting fast, accurate results is not just important, it's vital. Professionals don't have time to mentally shift decimal points around, and in an engineering or laboratory environment, the data and results are nearly always in engineering notation.

Maybe that's why they call it engineering notation?

It is a fact that a majority of mathmatical errors in a laboratory environment involve misplacing the decimal point. Why not make it easier, and reduce the possibility of common errors, by having the calculator present the answers in the format they're most often needed? Casio must have understood this, since they've built engineering notation into nearly every scientific calculator they've ever made. So have all the other major manufacturers.

Casio does engineering notation especially well on their most recent calculators. Most other calculators I've seen only present their results with the exponent divisable by three (such as 1 e^3, 1 e ^6, 1 e^9, and so on), which is helpful. Casio is the only brand I have seen that actually uses the letter designators, (such as 1K, 1M, 1G and so on). This is an excellent feature for folks like me. It makes it so much faster and easier to read the calculator's results at a glance!

I'm sorry to belabor this point, but some folks just don't seem to get it.

Casio is obviously aware of how important engineering notation is, since they do it better than anyone else. I hope they decide to incorporate it into the CP OS some day! I like my ClassPad so far. It would be even more useful to me if it could do what other Casio calculators, such as the fx-9860G, do so very well!

[PAP]

Professionals don't have time to mentally shift decimal points around, and in an engineering or laboratory environment, the data and results are nearly always in engineering notation.

Well, I have to say that I have never seen a single scientific paper where "engineering notation" is used. In all papers I have read, numbers are always expressed in the well known "scientific notation", i.e., 1.02345E16. Maybe that's why they call it scientific notation?
And no, professionals don't have time to learn what "17.542u" means; "1.7542E-5" says it all. A professional knows what a mantissa is, and what "E-5" means.
Anyway, I don't want to start a fight about this, since "engineering notation" is unimportant to me. You may consider it as vital, if you like. I just want to say that "engineering notation" is definitely not used by scientists.

[Vulpes Virago]

Anyway, I don't want to start a fight about this, since "engineering notation" is unimportant to me. You may consider it as vital, if you like. I just want to say that "engineering notation" is definitely not used by scientists.

PAP-

Have you ever used an oscilloscope? I think scientists might now and again. Did you even notice how the vertical deflection controls are marked? In volts per division, right? It might start at 1 mV per division, then 2 mV, then 5mV, then 10 mV, then 20 mV, 50 mV, 100 mV, 200 mV, 500 mV... Then it goes to 1 V per division, right? Guess what... That's engineering notation.

Take a look at the horizontal controls. You'll see that time per division goes from seconds to milliseconds to microseconds to nanoseconds to picoseconds... Or, to put it another way, from seconds to seconds E-3 to seconds E-6 to seconds E-9 to seconds E-12. See a pattern there?

So, as a scientist, you say you don't use oscilloscopes? How about a digital voltmeter? I'll bet it reads out in millivolts, then volts, then kilovolts, right? See the same pattern? You never see a digital multimeter that reads in decivolts or centivolts, do you?

No voltmeters? How about an ohmmeter? That would read out in milliohms, then ohms, then kiloohms then megohms, right? A pressure gage, perhaps, that reads out in millibars and bars? How about an RF signal generator or a frequency counter, which use Hertz, kilohertz, megahertz and gigahertz?

If you're a scientist who never uses engineering notation, you must never, ever touch an instrument of any kind!

[The_AFX_Master]

well, a flame war for the feature is useless . If you have the neeed of this feature.. why not to post it on the casio education forum? edu.casio.com/forum

[Vulpes Virago]

well, a flame war for the feature is useless .

You're right, AFX Master. So, please, don't start one by calling people lazy.

[The_AFX_Master]

Okay.. you win .. don't forget to post on the official casio forum.. i'm wondering about what can they say.

btw, just joking.. i was scared when i read this:

No, sweetheart

then i gone to your profile to seek some answers

[PAP]

So, as a scientist, you say you don't use oscilloscopes? How about a digital voltmeter?

Scientists don't necessarily use oscilloscopes or digital voltmeters. It seems that the term "scientist" is equivalent to the term "engineer" for you. This is not true. Anyway, whenever I need to use such kind of instruments I don't find it's difficult to read them and I never felt I need the famous engineering notation .

I'm still wondering what's so special about it, and why many people want such a feature disparately. I also cannot understand why you don't implement a small program to convert scientific notation to engineering notation. It is definitely not hard to write such a program, even in CPBasic.

[Vulpes Virago]

I'm still wondering what's so special about it, and why many people want such a feature disparately. I also cannot understand why you don't implement a small program to convert scientific notation to engineering notation. It is definitely not hard to write such a program, even in CPBasic.

Actually, I did write such a program. But, because of the way the ClassPad implements it's basic, it take far longer to call up a program than it does to do the conversion in my head.

And no, I don't think a scientist is an engineer. I do think a scientist, however, practices the scientific method, which involves forming hypotheses and testing said hypotheses through use of experiments. And such experiments involve instrumentation of some sort, I'm sure. But instrumentation aside, sweetheart, I cannot believe you have never used the metric system... And all the metric prefixes beyond quantities of 100 are in engineering notation. So, unless you're a scientist who only counts on his fingers, you've used the notation, like it or not.

I read a lot in these forums before ever posting here. I see you are like many others here. You follow an interesting pattern. It goes something like this-

'Why would anyone want (feature or program x)?'
'Because we need it for (reason y).'
'But I don't ever encounter (reason y). And it's very easy to accomplish that in other ways.'
'Perhaps that's true, but we constantly encounter (reason y), and (feature x) would save us time and trouble over doing it the way you suggest.'
'Well, I still don't understand why you need (feature x). It's not really necessary. You must be lazy or stupid.'

No, I am not accusing you of calling anyone lazy or stupid, at least not directly... Though others in this forum have. What I am saying is that you seem to have this odd opinion that if you yourself don't need a feature, then no one really does. And it baffles me even more that you ask why others need a feature, then argue with the answer. Okay, so you don't use engineering notation (which astonishes me). Perhaps that might be why you don't see the need for it? People who do use it do need it.

Anyway, I'm glad that the manufacturers of calculators do, as a rule, have some respect for the needs of people who use their products, and at least try to include features that a majority of users need. (Well, respect might not be nearly as important to them as wanting to sell their products... But you get the idea. ) Casio has done a good job of implementing engineering notation on the FX 9860 and other models like it- Better, as a matter of fact, than most other manufacturers. That's why the omission of this feature on the ClassPad is so puzzling to me and others.

So, those of you who have the knowledge to implement such a feature in a clean and easy-to-use way, please keep at it. Those of you who don't use engineering notation, please understand that there are those of us out here who do.

[PAP]

I do think a scientist, however, practices the scientific method, which involves forming hypotheses and testing said hypotheses through use of experiments. And such experiments involve instrumentation of some sort, I'm sure.

No, experiments don't necessarily involve instrumentation. Don't be so sure. My domain of interest is computational physics, and "experiments", in this kind of work, means "numerical experiments", using computer programs.

But instrumentation aside, sweetheart, I cannot believe you have never used the metric system... And all the metric prefixes beyond quantities of 100 are in engineering notation. So, unless you're a scientist who only counts on his fingers, you've used the notation, like it or not.

Actually, I use SI all the time, like almost all Europeans.
By the way, don't use the term "sweetheart" here. It sounds ironical to me, and I don't like it. Judging from the reaction of other people in this forum, I'm not the only one who doesn't like that style.

I read a lot in these forums before ever posting here. I see you are like many others here. You follow an interesting pattern. It goes something like this-
....

You can think it goes like this, if you like. I won't answer, there is no need to start a childish "flame war" here.

Anyway, I'm glad that the manufacturers of calculators do, as a rule, have some respect for the needs of people who use their products, and at least try to include features that a majority of users need.

If you include Casio in those manufacturers, you must be joking. Where is the "respect for the people who use their products"? OS 3 is a commercial product, a ClassPad owner must pay for it.

[The_AFX_Master]

Sorry for being hard but...a 1000 line topic to start a flame war, because you cant substract two exponents..... is the maximum expression of lazyness

I will suggest you 8 solutions:

1- Program it on basic, and get bored to call the convert function every time as you said...

Actually, I did write such a program. But, because of the way the ClassPad implements it's basic, it take far longer to call up a program than it does to do the conversion in my head.

It isn't how casio implements basic.. In fact, OS 3 lets you to call programs from main. OS 2 don't. And every chunk of code MUST be called to run, isn't it?, or you know such a language that works via telekinesis??
If you code your thing correctly (and use the OS 3 shift feature) you could solve the problem.

2- Memorize the prefixes for god sake!.. I'm an engineering student and i can do it perfectly! (and i hate the imperial system of units, so i use SI every time)
3- Use the 9860 for such things
4- Email to Casio, and wait eons for a reasonable answer that says "Use your 9860G"
5- Ask casio how to put that engineering notation via SDK, for sure, they will not answer
6- store the prefixes on named variables as M_ m_ K_ and so, then you put 1k_, you get 1000
7- Don't explain us how to be engineers, we already know
8- Dont call me or us a sweetheart

No, I am not accusing you of calling anyone lazy or stupid, at least not directly... Though others in this forum have.

Yes i do, i call the people lazy when they have a little problem, and blame all the world searching a solution, instead of solve it themselves.. Little problems need a little effort to overcome..

btw, we use engineering notation.. although we don't need a calculator to perform such task

[Vulpes Virago]

Sorry for being hard but...a 1000 line topic to start a flame war, because you cant substract two exponents..... is the maximum expression of lazyness

Oh, no need to apologize for being hard, sweetheart. I did not expect anything different. By the way, I can subract, add, multiply and otherwise manipulate exponents. Better than the ClassPad, it seems.

As for the so-called 'flame war', I didn't start it. Self defense. I'm just answering questions I've been asked, and getting insulted for it.

I will suggest you 8 solutions:

1- Program it on basic, and get bored to call the convert function every time as you said...
It isn't how casio implements basic.. In fact, OS 3 lets you to call programs from main. OS 2 don't. And every chunk of code MUST be called to run, isn't it?, or you know such a language that works via telekinesis??

I won't answer this, honey. I don't want to get your ire up. You couldn't handle the answer.

2- Memorize the prefixes for god sake!.. I'm an engineering student and i can do it perfectly! (and i hate the imperial system of units, so i use SI every time)

I had them memorized years ago, thanks. Again, I'm more capable than the calculator in this regard, as I can do it to the answers as well.

4- Email to Casio, and wait eons for a reasonable answer that says "Use your 9860G"
5- Ask casio how to put that engineering notation via SDK, for sure, they will not answer

As I said, I read this forum pretty thoroughly before I ever posted. I might have missed some things, but I have a good impression of how responsive Casio is to such requests and inquiries. They seem to have the same disdain for customers' issues as certain forum members.

6- store the prefixes on named variables as M_ m_ K_ and so, then you put 1k_, you get 1000

You know, that's an interesting idea. It's not really practical, though. Since the exponents are second nature to me, entering them is not a problem. And it's a lot faster and easier to enter the exponents using the hard keyboard than it is to go to the soft keyboard or variable manager to retrieve variables. But you get kudos for putting some thought into things. Perhaps you haven't picked it up, though. It's not entering things that is the problem. It's formatting the results.

7- Don't explain us how to be engineers, we already know

Funny... I don't ever remember trying to explain to anyone how to be an engineer.

btw, we use engineering notation.. although we don't need a calculator to perform such task

I don't need a calculator for such a task either, honey. I also don't need one for adding, subtracting, multiplying or dividing, or algebra, or most statistics. I use one for speed and to reduce the possibility of errors.

Look, all I'm asking for is a feature for speed and convienience' sake. It's a feature many others want as well. It's also a feature that's built into nearly every scientific calculator on the market. I'm sorry some folks have to take the suggestion as a personal affront, and feel obligated to call me (and others who make the suggestion) names. And yes, I guess defending myself from aggressors is a bit unreasonable as well. It only seems to make others pile on.

I just want to make the ClassPad more useful, for myself and others. It's an interesting machine, and a fun one to use. It's a whole new paradigm in calculators, and though it isn't perfect, it's pretty darned cool. I'm getting pretty attached to it, but I guess I'm not as enamored as others here.

So, feel free to continue the flames, sweeties. Pile on, pile on. You're all smart and SO right, and I'm a idiot for even asking for such a feature. Have fun. I understand your motivations. You need to do such things.

As for those who want to do something constructive with this problem, please let me know what you come up with. I'd be very interested in hearing about your ideas and your progress in improving an already innovative product. (You might want to do it by private message, however. It might alleviate some of the insults and flames for wasting your time on such idiotic pursuits.)

[PAP]

Vulpes Virago continues to use terms such as "sweetheart", "sweetie", "honey" etc, although other forumers don't like that rude style. Maybe a moderator can do something about this?
I won't answer to him anymore, even if he uses such terms a million times.

[Vulpes Virago]

And terms like 'lazy' and 'idiot' (not to mention 'liar') are so kind and courteous.

You're adorable, PAP. So intelligent. I'm a big fan.

Well, if any forum moderators are listening out there, I'll take the high road here. I will make an effort to avoid using such terms of endearment with PAP, since they obviously upset her, and she is such a sterling character. She also contributes greatly to this forum, and she is obviously very knowledgable about the ClassPad. I may need her help some day.

AFX_Master also mentioned this, so I'll try to do the same for him.

There now. I hope my assurances make you two feel better. I also hope you will follow my example, and temper your language as well.

[PAP]

I have a feeling that we have a Filip / DrCoyote resurrection here. Freaky.

[omegavirus]

WTF are you thinking PAP and the AFX Master? What's the big problem whit words like: sweetheart, sweetie, honey... Don't you have girlfriend? She told me that everyday in my native language Don't make such a big deal whit just words...

About the Engineering Notation/si Prefixes, I think they must be in the classpad also some unit support, a lot of people need it, if you don't need such convertions and notation it will not bother you at all...

[Vulpes Virago]

About the Engineering Notation/si Prefixes, I think they must be in the classpad also some unit support, a lot of people need it, if you don't need such convertions and notation it will not bother you at all...

You summed it up nicely, Omegavirus. I would call you 'sweetie', but I don't want to make your girlfriend angry.

[CharlieD]

Hello, anyone can explain how to activate the engineering notation in a casio fx9750gII? I put the E/ symbol in the display option, but I've missing something, because when I put 1000 I'm getting 1000 instead of 1K.

[piu58]

Please set the following:

Setup - to  Display - select Eng - exit

if you input 123456 you get 123.456k and so on.