286 replies to this topic

[CrimsonCasio]

i'll have you know that I grew up in a military family and one of my friends just signed up to be a green bret (sp?). im not a physical person myself and doubt i could live through boot camp, but I'll support the people that are risking their lives as much as i can. indeed, the front lines of this war are no longer over seas, the front line is wherever there is evil, ignorance, or plain stupidity. every american is fighting this war, but not all are fightning for america.

[betoe]

clinton (and the whole democratic party for that matter) have been claiming that iraq has wmd since the gulf war, i have the exact quotes if you want them...

Thats i had read some days ago on the newspaper.

[2072]

I didn't say you shouldn't listen your enemies, I say if your enemies tells you that your best friend is a bastard, you shouldn't trust them... that's all I said.

Then I didn't say that Kerry was a good man, neither that you should elect him, I just say that Bush is the worst president you could have.

I'm not democratic nor republican so you don't have to write long posts to tell me that democrats are as evil as republicans, I don't care... I'm just saying the actual government of the USA is dangerous for the world and for yourself so anything but this is better.

the only reason i havent see F911 is because I've heard its extreamly bloody and i have a problem with all bloody movies (only seen 3 rated R movies in my life)

Well there must be 2 or 3 moments, I admit it's not pretty to look, it's not like "Top Gun" style images behind Bush but at leat it's reality.
Life isn't only made of good moments, you will suffer like every human, don't live behind an illusion.

Then if you think you shouldn't look at F911 because you're not smart enough to have your own judjments, and fear to see your opinion to change and figure out you were wrong then it's your own problem.

Why do I want to pay to see liberal propaganda? I can turn on the TV and get that for free?

As I said you don't have to pay, then why M. Moore did this film? Do you think it's for is own satisfaction? Isn't he trying to tell american people something?

If MM uses "propaganda tactics" in f911 it's just because he has to convince Bush supporters, I didn't need his film to understand how bad was Bush, I knew it at the very beginning of his election.

The people who will make the difference at the ellections are not the clever ones like us but the mass, you cannot make all of these people to become clever and understand. You have to prove them by any means before it's to late, "propaganda tactics" are tsimply the best solution and MM used them in the best way (that's why he got the gold palm). Bush IS using it too and because he has billions of $ it's very very effective.

[Killer83Z]

and then because saddam was evil and it happened to be convieniant to take him out right then (had troops in the area, etc...).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are a lot of evil dictators in africa to be taken out! But hey, there's only sand down there. No troops in that area as well...

"If you're not with us you are against us." What the heck? If you are going to elect Bush again you are feeding the anti-american tendencies in europe. Your duty is to elect the lesser of two evils.

All the points you raise against Mr. Kerry have happened before he was president. While Bush proved that his actions are extremely doubtful when being in charge, to say the least.

And your obvious anxiety and panic towards communism is slightly amusing. I salute Kerry to trying to negotiate peacefully with his enemies instead of using weapons.

[megatroco]

the front lines of this war are no longer over seas, the front line is wherever there is evil

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is that. You really think that UUEE is fighting again the evil. Came on we are not childrens.
CrimsonCasio if your are not going to see f911 then you most see Born on 4 of july of the director Oliver Stone.
Its the same situation that happens today.

If you kill one terrorist two or more will come because you are seeding hatred.

The problem of the terrorism is something so complex that it is not possible to be solved with wars

[Bob Vila]

The problem of the terrorism is something so complex that it is not possible to be solved with wars

and you think that they will just pack up and go home because we ask them to???????? "Came on we are not childrens."

[Bob Vila]

i'm sure you all will enjoy this...
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
oh, and this too

The Sympathizer

I read Mike Moore�s most recent post yesterday, and I was unable to come up with words to describe it. I tried to tell my wife what I was thinking, but all I could come up with was, �He�s off the deep end.� Mike Moore has become so obsessed with his hatred for Bush that he�s now firmly on the side of the bad guys. I have always wanted to believe that Moore thinks what he is doing is best for the country, despite the fact that his ideology is wrong. But I was sad to see the similarities between his post yesterday and the release of Osama bin Laden�s most recent tape. I was dumbfounded, and I guess the best way to explain what I�m feeling is to lay out some of Moore�s words and some of bin Laden�s words, side by side. You can judge for yourself.


Moore: Halliburton is not a ?company? doing business in Iraq. It is a WAR PROFITEER, bilking millions from the pockets of average Americans. In past wars they would have been arrested?or worse.

Bin Laden: ?This war brings billions of dollars to big companies, either to those that manufacture weapons or those who reconstruct Iraq, like Halliburton and its sister companies.�


Moore: The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not ?insurgents? or ?terrorists? or ?The Enemy.? They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow?and they will win.

Bin Laden: ?By describing us and our actions as terrorism, you are necessarily describing yourself and your actions. ... Our actions are reactions to your actions that destroy and kill our people in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine.?


Moore: �You see, George, it?s not the lying and the doctoring of intelligence that has me all upset.�

Bin Laden: ?If they (the United States) were seeking peace ... they wouldn?t have to lie to people and claim that we kill for the sake of killing. Reality shows that they lie.�


Bin Laden: ?I plead with the honest people, intellectuals, activists and traders to form a permanent committee to raise people?s awareness for the justice of our causes��

Moore: ��one thing you can do is to participate in one of the various demonstrations taking place this Saturday around the country protesting Bush?s war against Iraq��


Moore (September 12, 2001): ��WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden!�
And� �Let�s mourn, let�s grieve, and when it�s appropriate let�s examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in.�
and� �We abhor terrorism � unless we�re the ones doing the terrorizing.�
and� �We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism�

Bin Laden: ?What happened on September 11 and March 11 was your goods delivered back to you.?


Moore: �In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again.�

Bin Laden: �People who are aware would not let their politicians jeopardize their security.?


Moore: �Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn�t living in poverty so we can have nice running shoes?�

Bin Laden: ?Security is a need for all humans, and we could not let you have a monopoly on it for yourselves.�


I guess at this point, I�m starting to really understand the philosophy of hatred against the United States of America. It has something to do with envy and a socialistic/communistic view that we shouldn�t have something if someone else doesn�t. Whether it comes from Michael Moore or Osama bin Laden, the reasons behind the hatred of our way of life�to work hard, persevere and be rewarded�are becoming transparent.

Take care,

Mike Wilson
Director, Michael Moore Hates America

and if you want some more of the other side of the story... http://www.amazon.co...348619?v=glance

and since you guys like going to the movies so much, http://www.michaelmo...tesamerica.com/ and http://www.alternet....aculture/19445/

happy reading

[Bob Vila]

59 deceits in f911
abridged version...
http://www.davekopel...r/59Deceits.pdf
full version...
http://www.davekopel...renheit-911.htm

[CrimsonCasio]

*claps* go bob!

man i loved this: The author, Dave Kopel, is a life-long Democrat who
endorsed and voted for Ralph Nader in 2000. He supports
some but not all aspects of the current war on terror.

btw, I forgot to mention earlyer, a man that has recently come forward to discredit president bush is being denounced by his own daughter as a liar. who is this man? some nut job mabey? nope, hes a former deputy govener of texas and (if he hadnt been convicted of fraud) was supposed to eventually run for president as a democrat... now, get this: not only is his daughter calling him a liar but by even claiming what he is saying is true (that he got bush into the texas national guard) he is commiting purjury since he testified on the stand not 4 years ago that he did not do this. you would think that a guy so obviously a patholgical liar would be out of the political loop by now, but noooooo, hes a member of kerry's staff and is thought (by democrats) to be going with him to the white house if kerry wins! (the reall kicker was that bush got into the guard a year before this guy took office, making th whole thing impossible)

you think bush is bad? you think bush is a liar? kerry and his friends will lie about anything and everything they can to get elected (lets see, sevice record, politics, "how i got my purple hearts", bush, etc...). you want a stolen election? well if kerry wins that what it will be, because he will have defrauded the american people and the entire world. (it looks like they may have even forged documents to embaras bush, its not proven yet but more and more experts are comming forward...)

mark my words, if kerry wins this election it will be the worst thing ever to happen to the US or the world, I almost want it to happen so you can see the destrution you would sow.

btw, i have yet to see a serious peice of evidence to convince me bush is anything but a perfect president (i dont think he is but if I did I wouldnt think otherwise so far), where as bob is pulling out more evidence and testimony than you can shake a stick at (and hes not normally good at these discussions ), give us some real facts and not silly games and rumors.

so far killer has made the best point, but its still wrong/misguided , and as to your last post killer, i already answered everything there previously (also, im not panicing over comunisim, its obviously bad, i dont think we need to argue that, what Im really afraid of is the people that cant see that it is bad... and i think rightfully so).

[huhn_m]

btw, the US debet is probably way higher than your debt... and if we keep electing ppl like kerry and clinton then we will never pay it off either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

just to inform you ... while clinton made a plus in the US household during his period
bush put it into the deepest minus ever.

To bed I was not here for the last days and I didn't read everything but sth. I want to express:

It is a FACT ...

*that the US is much deeper in dept now than in the bush period
*that bush is one of the greates dangers to the world ever since he bases wars on things he doesn't know
*that the CIA KNEW that there were no WMD in iraq
*that you do not free people but Oil. Why don't you help ppl. in other countrys so selfless that have no oil?
*The the republicans are ALWAYS on the side of the richest 1% and not on the majorities
*that SUCH a strong US is a rather a danger than a help for the world since it destabilizes our very neibour regions. You live far away. WAR will never REALLY be in your country.
*That most uof MMs facts are based on the truth and that you have no proof agains them
*That you can't fight a war on a country just for fun because you think the top most statesman is evil. Others think this about BUSH. So should the majority say it's ok to attac the US?
*The election was stolen because
1) Invalid votes casted by mail from the army in other countrys were counted for the rep.
2) The black ones had older election machines that had a high error rate
3) Some black ones were hindered from electing by the police
4) Some voters were deleted because their names sounded similar to prissoners
5) Bush had the hight court stop the recount because it got to close
*Bush wants to dictate the world his understanding of democracy that is BAD!
*Capitalism is better then communism but you can't just say "thats capitalism", crimson
since you should now what happened t oyour country under the conditions of a "free market
*Most of the money bush gov. gives away to companies goes into the pocets of the bosses
and not back to the customer. Only VERY naive or rich ppl. can believe that they profit from that.

I do NOT understand why a opperation should be only possible after 6 months with a
REAL health system. In germany it is possible too. And remember. NOW if you can't afford
the operation you'll die anyways.

btw, what did you want to say with this quote?

Moore (September 12, 2001): ��WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden!�
And� �Let�s mourn, let�s grieve, and when it�s appropriate let�s examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in.�
and� �We abhor terrorism � unless we�re the ones doing the terrorizing.�
and� �We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism�

Everything in there is right. So the right things are not right if they don't fit your direction?

[Bob Vila]

*The election was stolen because
1) Invalid votes casted by mail from the army in other countrys were counted for the rep.
2) The black ones had older election machines that had a high error rate
3) Some black ones were hindered from electing by the police
4) Some voters were deleted because their names sounded similar to prissoners
5) Bush had the hight court stop the recount because it got to close

you guys dont seem to get it do you. the popular vote DOSENT MATTER. the vote that gets the president into the white house is the Electoral college. which btw does not have to vote the way the people do, and can vote anyway they want

[2072]

you guys dont seem to get it do you. the popular vote DOSENT MATTER. the vote that gets the president into the white house is the Electoral college. which btw does not have to vote the way the people do, and can vote anyway they want

Then you are living in a dictature and you accept it... ?

Well Bob your doing a nice job in telling us what other people think but can't you talk by your own words?

about Michael Wilson (XV), according to IMDB 'MM hates america' is the only thing he has ever done (and probably the last)... it sounds strange to me, it's probably Bush propaganda department response to MM, so you shouldn't trust him either

mark my words, if kerry wins this election it will be the worst thing ever to happen to the US or the world, I almost want it to happen so you can see the destrution you would sow.

A president worse than Bush is Beyond my imagination. Americans shouldn't think they are voting for Kerry but against Bush. (Like us in France when we voted for J. Chirac against J.M Lepen)

btw, i have yet to see a serious peice of evidence to convince me bush is anything but a perfect president (i dont think he is but if I did I wouldnt think otherwise so far), where as bob is pulling out more evidence and testimony than you can shake a stick at (and hes not normally good at these discussions  ), give us some real facts and not silly games and rumors.

If you want me to use google and put links, I can:

http://www.sfgate.co...6/hsorensen.DTL

http://www.bushlies....es/10/index.htm

http://www.theage.co...8013255336.html

http://www.house.gov...aughtonfilm.htm

http://www.bushwatch.com/bushlies.htm



Do you want more about Bush' lies? Just continue my Google search ("Bush is a liar") over 8,000 sites...

http://www.google.gg.....s a liar"&lr=

happy reading

[huhn_m]

Then you are living in a dictature and you accept it... ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well put So you'd have to fight your own dictator

you guys dont seem to get it do you. the popular vote DOSENT MATTER. the vote that gets the president into the white house is the Electoral college. which btw does not have to vote the way the people do, and can vote anyway they want

It might sound strange that I claim to know more about your electional system than you do
but this is what I have already heared about you americans ... that most are not interrested
in politics and only scrape on the surface without looking behind.

I stated this before but this is how it goes:

In EVERY state (also in Florida) people vote for members of the "electoral college" as you
call it. These people vote for the president. So if the votes in Florida would have been
recounted they would have sent another member to the electoral dingsbums and
this one would have voted for Gore making him the president. Prrove me that I'm wrong
americans

*edit*
Oh and please read the links written down by 2072. Even a hardcore Bush fan like you
should considder that he has some VERY bad sides. Ignoring them and calling all countries and people in the world liars that state these things is simply stupid. They
are the majority and so you must at least considder that it has a grain of truth in it ...

[Bob Vila]

In EVERY state (also in Florida) people vote for members of the "electoral college" as you
call it. These people vote for the president. So if the votes in Florida would have been
recounted they would have sent another member to the electoral dingsbums and
this one would have voted for Gore making him the president. Prrove me that I'm wrong
americans

no, everyone in florida could have voted for gore, and the electoral college still dosent have to. they can vote anyway that they seem fit. like i have said earlier, they DO NOT have to follow the popular vote of the state, though most of the times they do.

Do you want more about Bush' lies? Just continue my Google search ("Bush is a liar") over 8,000 sites...

Do you want to know more about Moore's lies? Just continue my google search ("Micheal Moore is a liar") over 90,400 sites....

Oh and please read the links written down by 2072. Even a hardcore Bush fan like you
should considder that he has some VERY bad sides. Ignoring them and calling all countries and people in the world liars that state these things is simply stupid. They
are the majority and so you must at least considder that it has a grain of truth in it ...

please read mine. even a hardcore Moore fan like you should consider that he has some VERY bad sides. Ignoring them and calling all Republicans and Bush supporters in the world liars that state these things is simply stupid. They are the majority here, and you must at least consider that it has a grain of truth in it.

Well Bob your doing a nice job in telling us what other people think but can't you talk by your own words?

in case you havent noticed, and if you didnt notice crimson's posts, i have never been a very good writer (i was always better at math), but if you'll notice, its not all that much different from you guys and moore. you just rewrite what he has said into your own words.

[Killer83Z]

mark my words, if kerry wins this election it will be the worst thing ever to happen to the US or the world, I almost want it to happen so you can see the destrution you would sow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm with you.

You can never tell anybody anything I've learned that.

[2072]

Do you want to know more about Moore's lies? Just continue my google search ("Micheal Moore is a liar") over 90,400 sites....

Are you sure you are good at maths ? if I make the search "Michael Moore is a liar" I only gate 616 sites...

http://www.google.co...e is a liar&lr=

hmm I know what happened, you forgot the '"'... that's important, else you'll found every page where the words "Michael", "Moore" and "liar" appear at the same time, since MM says Bush is a liar, you are not counting what you expect...

If I make the search "Bush is a liar" without the '"', I found 262,000 sites

please read mine. even a hardcore Moore fan like you should consider that he has some VERY bad sides. Ignoring them and calling all Republicans and Bush supporters in the world liars that state these things is simply stupid. They are the majority here, and you must at least consider that it has a grain of truth in it.

Nice rephrase, I prefer Moore's bad sides, at least he doesn't hide them, I like what he is trying to do, he is working for peace not for guns and wars...

Note: we did not call all Republicans and Bush supporters in the world liars, we called Bush a liar, that's a bit different, else we won't be trying to make you understand what is happening in your country.

[CrimsonCasio]

this is a bit off topic but i wanted to point out that for some reason google gives diffrent results to diffrent people, i dont know why. for instance for me the only number that cooresponds with yours (or bob's) is 616. why? who knows... (and im not trying to prove anything with that im just stating something I find interesting, although it is possible that bob got those numbers...) another example is that when I type in Classpad Games my site appears 3 from the top, but with bob its not on any of the first 10 pages (this is how i first noticed this phenominon)

i must admit though I was hoping I'd find that I did get 92k returns, then i would might have been able to show some sort of bias to the euorpean countries causing you to only get 616 when searching in french... alas, my hopes of uncovering a consperacy have been foiled

anyway, unfortunately im exausted (grand opening at work today ) so you'll have to wait till tomarrow to hear my grand rebutle (sp?)... I cant beleive im falling asleap at 9pm... thats a first.

btw, killer really is right, its easyer to pull a car with you teeth than it is to change someones mind... useually you just have to settle with gloating over them later. (doesnt help, but it feels good )

(but i soooo love debating...)

[2072]

but if you'll notice, its not all that much different from you guys and moore. you just rewrite what he has said into your own words.

Not only Moore... and at least we try to think and understand their words and make them ours.

By the way did you ever heard about a movie named "Fahrenheit 451"? It will explain you MM's film title and what it means...

Why MM does what he is doing? You didn't asnwer to this question... we know it's not for money...

Did you ever asked yourself why some very respected intellectuals decided to give him "la palm d'or" for his film? Those people were not all americans and certainly not all democrats.

MM is just trying to save his country... You'll understand it too late

[2072]

The difference in Google's results came from the difference between the data centers who execute and answer your query (depending where you are living), they cannot be updated at the same time so you might found the result of some older or newer crawls.

the exact number from my "Bush is a liar" search was 8900.

[CrimsonCasio]

hehe, one more thing

"By the way did you ever heard about a movie named "Fahrenheit 451"? It will explain you MM's film title and what it means..."

actually its a book by ray bradbury (great author) sub-titled "the temperature at which books burn", and i admit moore was clever in his use of the title but a bit off base.

[ross8653]

I see a lot of quotes supporting one side or the other (mostly bush) which is fine, but you should force yourself to read articles that do not support your opinion. Both sides are bad when you only fill your lives with news that you want to hear. A website I enjoy visiting is www.indymedia.org (indy=independant). Anyone may post any story they wish (although it is hidden on the right until facts are checked) All media is biased it is the responsibility of the people to take in all media and make their own decision.

One funny thing I?ve noticed is the right says its liberal media and the left says its conservative media. I can't decide because I?m biased myself but 9 people or whatever owning 95% of the media (something I heard) can't be good.

For me it's not even about the war, although I think overall it could be beneficial except we had no right to go there. Sadam hasn?t had weapons of mass destruction since the early 90?s. If we decide to take out countries everywhere there are terrorists or WMD?s what prevents us from invading Iran, North Korea, and the dozen other countries that harbor terrorists? Terrorism is not why we went to Iraq, bush had something out for sadam otherwise we'd be attacking Iran and putting more troops in Afghanistan and eyeing North Korea.

The main issue for me is civil rights. I went to the RNC protests (now you know my political views) and overall it was a great experience. But the things that the police did were quite bad. The police would net entire blocks of people in and arrest all of them. They did not care if you were driving your car, shopping at a store or just walking the street with your dog. They kept people in jail for over 24 hours without charges see here When they arrested bikers they cut all the locked up bikes from that street even if you live there and did not even use your bike that day. The location where they kept people was an old bus depot that is known to have asepsis and the ground was covered in chemicals. Many people had rashes on their arms and an 8 month pregnant women was forced to stay there (she wasn?t protesting). Some people have responded to this news as ?good they deserve it.? I don?t see how someone could say this, no one deserves this, especially people voicing their opinions. Is it suddenly good if their opinions are against yours? So many of our rights have been taken away and what gets me is most people don't care. I'm reminded of a popular quote

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
--Benjamin Franklin

I see this directly in the PATRIOT act where it was passed basically because of 9/11
Too often I see the United States making decisions as a teenager would. If it benefits you do it, and don't think about other people it affects or how you would like it if someone did the same to you.

One last thing did you hear about the nuclear explosion over North Korea? If they got nukes and if bush is elected I fear we will invade there too, which will require the draft to be reinstated. http://www.sss.gov Also for up to the minute stats on who will win what state look at http://www.electoral-vote.com/

you can look at frame captures of my video I took at the rnc (3mb total not dialup friendly) http://129.21.136.147/rnc/

[CrimsonCasio]

you know... i think i agreed with or sympathized with everything he said... but then... im sitting here desperatly trying to go to sleep.... becomeing delerious... must read again... in the morning...

[huhn_m]

I agree with ross. Well stated.

MM is just trying to save his country... You'll understand it too late

I exactly agree with that ... We are trying to save you some worries but you will
notice it too late, when all the harm is done. At least you'll remember what we
said then. You may shout at us if kerry wins and even a tiny bit gets wrong but
I'd be ok with this since I can't Imagine that anything could be worse than bush

PS: I got 8,880 for a search for "Bush is a liar" :

[Killer83Z]

I can't Imagine that anything could be worse than bush

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I can. But maybe that's just me. Anyway, ross has taken the discussion in the right way. By the way, I never seen or read any of Michael Moore's books or movies. I do know enough facts to say that Kerry must be the lesser of two evils, as I stated before. You have to use democracy to tell people like Bush off. Otherwise they'll think they can lure you into strange, strange stuff...

[huhn_m]

and if you want some more of the other side of the story... http://www.amazon.co...348619?v=glance

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are kidding aren't you ... have you read the critics on the book ...
I think they speak for themselves: Since Bob seems to like quotes ...

 
Really Sad, September 13, 2004

Reviewer:  sheen6 (Newark, CA United States) - See all my reviews
This book was written and endorsed by the NRA. They are getting back at Michael Moore for making the NRA look bad and having some people want stronger gun control laws with his movie - Bowling for Columbine. This book is ridiculous and really sad.

The writers are mad at Michael Moore - a guy who wants equality for women, more aid to the poor, help for minorities and a better environment. The title of this book is a copy of Al Franken's book - Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot. Also some of the stuff the authors write in this book is stuff like - Michael Moore says he is from Flint but he actually lives in a nice house in a nice city. So?? If the guys who wrote this book actually paid attention to Mr. Moore's movies, they would notice he always refers to Flint as his "home town" not - this is where I live.

None of the sources in the book were referenced. In the back of the book, there were notes and sources but we have not idea what they are referring to.

To learn about the conservative bias in our news - watch Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism. To find out about our fictitious war but the very real pain and suffering of our U.S. soldiers and their families - watch Uncovered: The Whole Truth About the Iraq War or Fahrenheit 9/11.

For any news you might "miss" you can go to www.buzzflash.com or www.moveon.org.

All true. I can only agree.

These two authors attack Michael Moore for profiting from his movies and films. How much has George W. Bush and his cronies profited from the subject of said work? Its funny that two grown men would focus so much on a nobody, on a regular American who has a right to say what he feels. They are just trying to profit from his fame much like W does from his fathers name. Instead of going after the facts in the movie that are important they attack the man who presented them. Very typical of right wing fanatics. Dont talk about issues, just discredit the one who does. Case closed. Garbage, a true waste of time... focus on what the candidate says and does...NOT THE COMMENTATERS!!! I only wonder how much paper was wasted in this poor excuse for a book.

great and true ...

I know that the overall rating is 3/5 but I think you should look closely. While MM references his quotes
and sources the authors here definately do not and are just attaccking the person while not saying any-
thing against him ... at least this is what I read from the reviews.

[huhn_m]

abridged version...
http://www.davekopel...r/59Deceits.pdf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did the work of reading those and I also searched for their foundations. While there seem to be
no sources given in the abridged version more gives poular newspapers & news channels has his sources
that he based the factsof f911 on.

Please read this:

The Facts of F911
The Facts of F911 Part 2
The Facts of F911 Part 3
The Facts of F911 Part 4
The Facts of F911 Part 5
The Facts of F911 Part 6
F911 - The facts confirmed by the comission

Also read this for other facts mainly concerned with BUSH and his relations to terrorists and partly
making F911 more solidly based (right word ?)

http://houseofbush.com/index.php

[CrimsonCasio]

quick point: i believe the whole point of th abriged version is that it leaves out the sources and proofs.

[Andy.Davies]

i havent really stuck my oar into this topic, but so far, of what i have read, heard, watched etc, i agree with killer, Kerry does seem to be the lesser of the two evils (Bush being the worse)...

[CrimsonCasio]

hey andy, i was wondering if you had a political opinion

[Andy.Davies]

yeah, i also dislike Tony Blair alot, the UKIP (United kingdom Independace Party) seem to be like a good choice, but im not reqally sure...

[CrimsonCasio]

i dont know much about english politics but make sure you do your research first

[2072]

actually its a book by ray bradbury (great author) sub-titled "the temperature at which books burn", and i admit moore was clever in his use of the title but a bit off base.

Well the common thing is the de-information of the people by the government.

[CrimsonCasio]

indeed
and MM makes a living off politics

[2072]

as Bush and his government But Bush & Cie are earning a lot more I think.

MM isn't doing this for money, else he wouldn't attack Bush.

[huhn_m]

quick point: i believe the whole point of th abriged version is that it leaves out the sources and proofs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you believe a book more than the official statements of the ones refered to
themselves? While MM cites CNN as his source the author of the decites
has only some doubtfull sources to give.

I don't think that his sources are as believable as the ones MM gives since
the ones of MM are more widely accepted to be true.

[CrimsonCasio]

im not sure where your getting this... if you read the full version im sure it will have the sources included (i've taken a look at it but havent had time to read it, its quite verbose)

[huhn_m]

yeah but they are no officially accepted sources

[betoe]

well, you have a diffrent life mostly (i think) because your government and police are extreamly corupt (btw, kerry said something about how the LA police should act more like the mexican police...  )

I was reading that on a magazine, and its totally true, writed by a colombian writer called Laura Restrepo:

"Between M?xico and Colombia there are a lot of similarities, some of them for good and others not much good. Mexico and Colombia, and generally all latin america, have the need of tell its history, its like we had conscious that live its a heroic deed and what we do its heroic.

There is some kind of mad heroic, a sensation of that nobody will know that, including our sons. There is some kidn of proud that we obtain of living in oppose situations, with a lot of violence and insecurity that wear out the society."

This is true! About 2 months ago outside of a beach bar (the one that i visit constantly) we had a little problem with a guy coz he crossed the street and i must stop the car fastly. Then a friend tell his "you think you're rubber made" then them said stupid things, i said calm down and go ahead with the car. But my friend say "stop" and i tought "if he want to fight i must let him, its his life" (great error). For dont do the history so long all finished in a big beating for that poor silly guy, and we escaped about at 3 km/hour!, there was a lot of people and cars in the heart of the touristic zone of the port, and any police near, so we escaped.

And like this we (my friends and me) have a lot of histories, with collides, fights, destroy things, etc.. I had not participated in all of this shit but i was in the same place. And i had never been on jail or with judgment. Every week a new history, or situations like this that i see and try to avoid. Impunity at 98%, more than 1 guy is killed in this zone by narcs every day, with a lot of violence, principally in the city near here, the capital of this state, 200 km north to my city. And nobody had never knew who kill that guys, the guilty is free waiting for be payed to kill another guy. Thats why i love to see every tuesday on discovery channel programs like "the fbi files" or "the new detectives", incredible how that guys solve the problems.

I live besides one of the most importants avenues of the city, there are here extremely poor people, braves districts (hoods i think in slang) and rich district, only with walk some streets of difrerence. I had see fights with only going to the balcony to breath fresh air, and a lot of crazy things.

But i had prepared mentally to change for good, by example the last saturday i stopped a fight in that club (joes oyster bar ), i know that guy had did bad things against us but anyway i stopped that, i fight inside me with what is what we usually do in that situations and what is correctly. Sometimes here is a damned chaos.


So Mr. Crimsoncasio , we have different lifes and i think its very different know about this besides to live this everyday. Come on the next summer here, very nice beachs , and know a little about what im talking, i can do a tour in the city.

[CrimsonCasio]

i'll trust your word betoe
personally i have no desire to go to any of the folowing places: mexico, africa, south america, or korea (ive actually been there and dont want to go back...). if i werent compleatly paranoid of any and all forms of bugs I probably would consider it, but as it is i can barely stand the bugs in florida

I also watch things like court TV, i really like watching the process cops use to track down the criminals

anyway, i heard something on the radio today that might have signifigant effect on this discussion: Sean Hannity (my favoite talk radio guy) has challenged Michel Moore to a debate, the prize being that the winner (decided by the audiance) will get to donate $5,000 (donated by a local college) to the childrens charity of their choice. the deal behind this is that this college was going to pay moore to come speak at their college and the students and community was outraged that they were going to have thier tuition spent on moore speaking weather they liked it or not, thus they called up hannity and voulenteered to pay for his expenses if he would come as well to counter moore. it was hannity who suggested that moore come "at cost" as well and donate the rest of his fee to be the prize for winning (to be donated to the charity), if moore refuses hannity will put up the money himself, but it will look bad for moore. if moore refuses to debate hannity he will not only look bad, but hannity will hold his own speach at the same time as moore and we will see who draws a bigger crowd. Hannity has forced moore to debate him and im sure the results will be interesting

btw, you can listen to the sean hannity show on the internet at http://www.hannity.c...nt=/live_stream

then mabey you can hear whats really happening in america.

[2072]

then mabey you can hear whats really happening in america.

I tell you the same

Keep us informed.

btw: you should watch Fahrenheit 9/11 before so you can have a "both side" view on the matter