You know at first I was like you, I thought this constitution was a good thing I was sure I would say YES, I did not understand why some people wouldn't want Europe!
Then I came across this page, and I woke up... As I said in France there is a real propaganda to force the people to say YES. The fact is that the YES defenders have no argument to discredit the NO...
I want Europe but not that one!
The Maastritch vote was only about unique money.
That is the first time in 50 years that we are asked our opinion about what is beeing decided behind our backs!
My main reasons to vote NO are (the same that are written on the linked page):
1 - This text is unreadable, there are about 400 pages with multiple "see other" in every paragraph.
A Constitution should be readable by the people, even for an expert this text is difficult to read...
2 - This constitution defines the type of economy we MUST have (so far only the soviet constitution dared to do such a thing). A Constitution should let the choice, this one is clearly liberal.
3 - This Constitution is too difficult to change, to change a single coma every state have to agree then the parliament of each state (or his people) have to agree...
4 - The most important thing: This Constitution breaks one of the biggest fundations of democracy: the separation of powers, the ones who create the laws cannot apply them and the ones who apply the laws cannot create them
... This is the most important argument. (you should read this part of the text)
5 - This constitution has been written by people not elected to do such a job, it has been written by the people actually in power. (Like if they were writting the rules they will have to follow later)
[quote]In germany the "Bundestag" and the "Bundesrat" decided about the
constitution and voted yes.
I thought that Bundesrat would answer on 27th of May?
[quote]Same with the constitution. The real decission makes the media since they decide to inform us only about the facts of the consitiution they want us to know and if the media wants us to say no then they will find the right facts.
Well in France the medias clearly want us to say YES... It's a real brain wash.
[quote]Nobody will EVER read the consitution since it is like a 1000 page book (maybe a little less but at least arround 500) and most (if not all) have neither the time nor the political knowledge to read these things.
Indeed that is a sufficient reason to say NO. This is a unique case for a constitution...
Yet every voting citizen have received the complete text of the Constitution in his letterbox... (btw: in the package my mother received they forgot the "NON" paper, there was only the "OUI" one...)
It's 14.7 times longer than our actual French constitution! (using the number of words to compare - more stable than the number of pages)
[quote]No normal "citizen" does really know why things are the way they are in the constitution because they do not have enought insight in the politics of the EU. The constitution can't look at everyones needs and must considder that this is a grown union of nations that is based on many contracts that must be included in this constitution.
This Constitution will define the life of every "normal" citizen for several generations so I think they have there word to say.
If you take the actual French constitution, it's readable, only 20 pages....
[quote]What do you want to achive by voting no? What are the points you are against?
To prevent this Constitution to take place because if it does we will have it for 50 years (Giscard said it himself)
[quote] I think the constitution is a good thing though I have only limited insight too. It makes a lot of things possible wich were impossible before. (Leaving the EU, a european exterior minister ...)
like you before because I had only limited insight too...
Do not forget that almost 95% of this constitution is already applyed through the Nice treaty that every YES defenders in France hate because it is even worse than this text (but they ratified it yet).
In fact that is the only argument of the YES defenders: if we vote NO then we will stay with Nice treaty...
I agree that the Constitution is better than the Nice treaty but I'm not asked to vote for the differences but for the whole thing.
[quote]You should really considder if you really don't like the constitution or if you just don't want to loose some of your souvereign
As you may have understood I really hate this constitution that I think is dangerous for teh futur of democracy in Europe...
--> See right above. It is not as simple to unite nations as to build a new one from ground up. You have to considder many DIFFERENT laws and habits in the countries that take part and many nations signed in based on a contract the still want to see in action (like Nizza) so that many parts are taken from there.
Well they have failed, a Constitution HAS to be readable by ANY citizen.
[quote]He criticizes that:
SIEG (services d?int?r?t ?conomique g?n?ral, services in common public interrest) do not appear in it
So what does he want. It doesn't in the German const. either. Does he want a SHORT and EASILY readable constitution or one that considders ALL facts from ALL nations lokal constitutions?
Maybe the German translation is bad because it is not what he meant.
He meant that in this Constitution that yet make 400 pages they did not find the place to write the definition of SIEG. Note that SIEG is a new invention of this constitution to replace what we call Public Services (Enterprise that belongs to the State and that are not ruled by the god Money).
[quote]The text seems als suggestive to me. He say that the "Constitution is missing a list with the basic law-making rights of the institutions" but then he says that THERE are such right but just not listed in one single list but in each paragraph.
So what? Does he want the information to repeat themselves to make the "text" even longer? I assume that the restrictions are in the paragraphs corresponding to their topics.
Well I think that a list of the domains where each institution can create laws is important don't you think? You have to read 400 pages to understand (and I'm not convinced) what each institution can and cannot do. It's like if they were trying to deceive us by hiding the most important points...
[quote]Btw. the author say you have to understand what you sign... so what is on your computer? Windows? Remember the license you "signed"? Have you read it. I bet you have not understand this whole thing unless you read the dozend of pages several times. And have you? NO? And haven't you heared the critics that came when M$ introduced their strange paragraphs in it allowing them to get data from your PC? And the critics came from accepted sources. So you can assume that SOMEONE out there is reading the contracts and thinking about it,
My computer will not rull the way we and futur generations will have to live... Besides this is a Constitution not a contract, IT HAS TO BE READABLE.
[quote]So you can assume that SOMEONE out there is reading the contracts and thinking about it,
Indeed there are and most of those people are voting no...
2. a constitution is not politicaly motiveted
oh, it is believe me. And somewhat else why do all political parties of the spectrum of parties agree to the constitution if it does not resemble or at least allow their sight of policie?
No it is not, read the definition of Constitution.
And not all political parties agree to this text. Note that it's a real problem in France, because we do not understand why socialists are voting YES to this text that is clearly ultra-liberal...By the way the man who wrote the page I linked is a law teacher, so I think he knows better than us what he is talking about. Besides he is not the only law teacher to think this way, a lot of university teacher are against this Constitution!
[quote]he critices that you have to read other documents to get the meaning of an institution (Annotation 8)
Well this is also the case in germany sometimes. Some offices are not defined in the consitution. No problem there for me ...
It just adds to the fact that this text is REALLY unreadable...
Inflation politics make people loose their job
Wrong! As statet rightly the bank does ONLY rise their interest if the request for products is too high to be satisfied. But when it is too high this means there are too few workers so rising the interest just levels the request to the possible production.
From what I read, rising the interest rate prevent small entreprise to rise and progress and can even make them close, so as a side effect it makes peole to lose their job and you can be sure that the banks knows that very well!
The const. is difficult to change
so what does he want? this IS democratic since EVERYONE involved has to agree. He would also comlain if it would say a 2/3 majority can decide. And btw. changes of const. do not happen too often and laws and be made by a simply majority of people and size
From what I know in democracy it's majority who decides and yes he would also complain if it was 2/3 because as I said democracy is about majority.
[quote]This paragraph is the result of the unwillingness of people to give away their souvereign powers because NO nation wants to accept a change it does not want but the majority of the others accepted.
obviously you are missing the point.
[quote]*I don't want to read on, but if you want you can get counter-arguments for most of the things he says. Some are true and lie in the nature of a treaty of many nations. Just tell me what does convince you most and I'll tell you my opinion to it. (There ARE some fact I agree to but these are not so bad to make this work a bad consititution.
Well no one as succeeded to counter-args his 5 main arguments. And this is not a treaty it's a Constitution, don't be misleaded by this word trick.
You should read on, but from what I know you can read French, so maybe you should read it in French because it seems there were some losses in translation...
You should also read evry NOTE in the text they are here to proove what he says with facts and full extracts from the Constitution.
Edited by 2072, 20 May 2005 - 08:50 PM.