78 replies to this topic

[noname11]

oh, so there IS a possibility
But wouldnt the 9860G **** itself over the backlight option?

Yeah, there might be some issues with the LCD driver... could make everything a bit more complicated.

[noname11]

The Casio emulator is quite restricted in this regard (and not even up to date).
So, if it doesn't start up at all, someone would have to manipulate the OS image.

[mintsmike]

I might be able to help with this project, though I think there is a lot of work involved, it is not necessarily legal and the outcome would be lesser than the effort

Feel free to ask of my knowledge

Regards

[Mardoxx]

I've got a dump of the update firmware binary, http://www.casiocalc...?showtopic=4339
If that's of any help

Any idea how to go about this?

also, should we start a topic in the programming section to discuss this, instead of hijacking this topic

[noname11]

No idea if this is going to work, but one could try the following:

- get an fx-9860GII SD
- write an add-in to access the test mode and read out the flash memory
(The test mode has a functionality to make a copy of the flash on the SD card)
- store the file on your PC, cut its length to 2.5 MB (remove user data), rename it to "UpdateCode" and make it a *.bin file
- start the fx-9860G OS 2.00 update application
- go to your local temporary directory (.\[user]\local settings\temp) and replace the file "UpdateCode.bin" with yours
- proceed with the update process

Don't know if some configuration files need to be changed as well, but it doesn't seem that there's much difference between the *.fls and *.bin file.

EDIT:
If the update program claims OS 2.00 is already installed, use this guy's trick: http://www.casiocalc...=...ost&p=47018

Edited by nexgen, 04 May 2009 - 07:50 PM.

[Mardoxx]

Just playing with my updated calc.... you can do x=f(y) graphs now and x< x<= x> x>= etc


Just had a thought....

couldnt we extract the app @RUNMAT from the GII and run it as an addin?

Edited by Mardoxx, 04 May 2009 - 11:07 PM.

[noname11]

So, I did something crazy...
Took the Slim 2.00 UpdateCode.bin file and copied it into my temporary directory while fx-9860G OS 2.00 update was running.

The result:




"Syntax help on"

As we can see, the LCD driver works, the key and menu layout is horrible and it always complains about low battery voltage (maybe a side effect of the different LCD)

Thanks to Mardoxx!
He has found a very simple way to get your own operating system on the fx-9860G.

Edited by nexgen, 05 May 2009 - 01:49 PM.

[noname11]

> have you tried pressing shify + option? [backlight I think]
The fx-9860G Slim has its own light key (NOT shift+optn) ...and its own help key.
Both are missing on the fx-9860G SD.

If the "low battery voltage" is really an LCD driver bug (and not my batteries... ), we would need to adjust the driver code or remove the battery massage.

[noname11]

Decimal. (not tested)
Only the GII calulators can do that.

I have tried to install the fx-9860G AU OS (1.05), but the update process fails all the time. The hardware seems to be different.
Anyway, Slim OS 1.11 works as well.

[noname11]

There's a "secret" link for all fx-9860G AU users still running OS 1.05.
https://edu.casio.co...orm.php?fn=1094

So, all calculator models can now be equipped with OS 2.00!

[==============================================================================]

Furthermore, I found out how to install the AU OS on an fx-9860G:
- get an AU OS 1.05 or 2.00 UpdateCode.bin file
- open it with a hex editor and go to offset "1001C"
- replace the hex code "33 36 35 45" with "80 00 5D 7C" and save it
- copy this file to your local temporary directory when the fx-9860G update program is running

Now it flashes the chip, but booting up will always result in an OS update error.
By the way, the Slim OS uses the same hex code as the GSD* OS - that's why it worked without modifying the update file.

*GSD = fx-9860G/fx-9860G SD

Edited by nexgen, 06 May 2009 - 03:20 PM.

[Mardoxx]

What's the difference between the US/UK version and the AU version?

[noname11]

Anyone still interested in putting AU OS 2.00 on a standard fx-9860G? Well, now it's working...

Modify the following lines in the AU UpdateCode.bin file (OS 2.00!):
( offset : old_hex_value => new_hex_value)
0x01001C : 0x33363545 => 0x80005D7C
0x010021 : 0x32 => 0x33
0x03A21A : 0x8B0A => 0x0009
0x03A222 : 0x8B06 => 0x0009
0x24FFF8 : 0x105F8269 => 0x105F81CC

So, isn't 800 KB enough for you?
PS: For people interested in the GII hardware specs (Casio manual): http://rapidshare.co...0GII_Hard_E.pdf

Edited by cfxm, 23 May 2009 - 03:40 PM.

[noname11]

As it seems, newer fx-9860G models don't have a backup battery anymore.
I don't know what the preinstalled os version is, but most likely it's OS 1.05 (Supports RAM auto-backup).

Edited by cfxm, 15 September 2009 - 09:50 PM.

[brooce]

I wondered why all new models don't have a backup battery anymore, so I did some testing, looked at the flash images and removed the main batteries and figured out that all OS 2.00 models backup 128 KB of RAM to flash address* 0x250000 when the calculator is turned off. Note that user memory starts at address** 0x270000.

So every time the calculator turns off it saves ram contents to flash? I really dislike this approach.
Flash memory has a limited write life that will render the feature (or your calculator) worthless outside of warranty, and I just bought a Casio FX-9860GII SD (still not here yet, though)

I would much prefer a separate battery and it not using flash memory to back-up RAM (like the Texas Instruments TI-89 and others).
I will probably sell the Casio FX-9860GII SD, new and unopened because of this. There is talk on Wikipedia about Casio Algebra FX calculators dying because of this:
"First made in the year 1999, these have flash memory which provides larger capacity than previous models, however due to the short lifespan of flash, these calculators stop working after a few years."

True or false?
Either way, I MUCH prefer a back-up battery keeping the contents of ram than flash memory. Even if it only worked on the SD card slot, I would prefer this over internal saves to a non-removable chip with limited write life.

Edited by brooce, 10 December 2009 - 04:50 AM.

[Martin]

So every time the calculator turns off it saves ram contents to flash? I really dislike this approach. ...

Each product has a special component these days, we name it in Czech "kurvítko". This component ensures that the device will work the time period of warranty + something. Then this component gets broken. The Casio's implementation of this component (or feature) is RAM saving on power off.
I agree with you and also strongly disagree with this feature.

[noname11]

The AFX flash supports only 100,000 write/erase cycles.

The flash in the fx-9860 has an endurance of 1,000,000 cycles and it can retain data for at least 20 years.

This should be sufficient for everyone.

Edited by cfxm, 10 December 2009 - 02:55 PM.

[Martin]

The flash in the fx-9860 has an endurance of 1,000,000 cycles and it can retain data for at least 20 years.

Says who ? Marketing department of CASIO ELECTRONICS CO. LTD ? :-)

[TovAre]

Says who ? Marketing department of CASIO ELECTRONICS CO. LTD ? :-)

http://revolution-fx...=Hardware#Flash

Google S29JL032H to see the datasheet. It could be a lot more than 1 million cycles if there is some wear balancing has been implemented in the firmware, there's certainly enough space to do it

Regards,

Tov Are

[brooce]

I just received my Casio FX-9860 GII SD.




I will not be opening its hard plastic case (the impossible-to-open-by-hands type of hard plastic) and will sell it off (probably at a slight loss). 

1) I don't trust manufacturer flash claims. So many audio devices (and USB flash drives and SD cards, etc.) are supposed to be resilient, but their flash memory can and sometimes does still fail prematurely.

2) This calculator is extremely ugly with its silver painted front (I thought it was white). I dislike silver paint on plastics (that usually wears away with use or shows up scratches badly). I do like the dark blue of the rest of the plastic. 

I will not be buying any unit that saves RAM data to flash memory as it turns off (which probably excludes me from the ClassPad range and all the advanced Casio calculators now too). 

Edited by brooce, 16 December 2009 - 06:06 AM.

[brooce]

It is possible to turn off a fx-9860G without saving the RAM to the flash memory: Just remove one of the batteries until the screen is turned off. Then insert the battery again. The calculator will stay turned off until you press AC/ON and the RAM content is not written to the flash.

I appreciate this tip but to me it's something that's very inconvenient.

I already have a Texas Instruments TI-89 Titanium but I thought this Casio was interesting with the backlight and their different approach to doing things but I won't want to use it without the reliability (and replacement-ability) of a back-up battery. With a back-up battery, flash memory write life uncertainty doesn't even come into the equation, which is what I prefer. I want hardware to last a lifetime if I choose (and if it can). I am one of these people that never likes throwing things out (or buying again and again and again).


I am disappointed in the Casio approach (which saves them money for sure, but doesn't do their customers any favours). Plus thie silver paint on this thing makes it look like a $2 calculator to me. Hah! In my view, nothing cheapens a product more than silver paint!

[noname11]

I like the silver paint.
And if you want to look inside your calculator: http://www.casiocalc...?showtopic=4369

[brooce]

I like the silver paint.
And if you want to look inside your calculator: http://www.casiocalc...?showtopic=4369

cfxm,
I had a look at your topic earlier. Nice detailed pics!

After R&D, marketing and distribution, I predict USD $5 per unit - or $4.96 without silver paint

Nintendo, put some calculator buttons on your DS and get into the calculator business. You could make a fortune here selling your similarly-priced DS

[TovAre]

cfxm,
I had a look at your topic earlier. Nice detailed pics!

After R&D, marketing and distribution, I predict USD $5 per unit - or $4.96 without silver paint

Nintendo, put some calculator buttons on your DS and get into the calculator business. You could make a fortune here selling your similarly-priced DS

Hey, the Nintendo dsi has a calculator: http://dsiware.ninte...ario_calculator

Btw. the fx-9860GII is an awesome and speedy calculator, I use it every day.

The persist to solid state is perhaps superior to the old battery back-up solution, I guess I'll know in a few years time.

Regards,

Tov Are

[brooce]

Hey, the Nintendo dsi has a calculator: http://dsiware.ninte...ario_calculator

Yes, though it would be nice to see a professional Nintendo calculator with lots of buttons, I think. Built around DS-hardware, with perhaps a sunlight-viewable display and touch screen but that doesn't play games and has better battery life than the DS.

Btw. the fx-9860GII is an awesome and speedy calculator, I use it every day.

Nice. I have no concerns about it performing as it should, but I have doubts it will perform over the long-term because of a manufacturer's willingness to save some $ on every unit by making use of embedded flash memory instead of slightly more complex and expensive-to-manufacture battery back-up approach.

The persist to solid state is perhaps superior to the old battery back-up solution, I guess I'll know in a few years time.

I have my doubts of superiority. One approach relies on a back-up battery which can always be purchased when the battery runs down after years. The other relies on an embedded, non-removable chip with limited write-life with no option to replace it when it fails (disposing of the unit is the normal course of business these days).

BTW, under your name, you listed your calculators. It says "DS" instead of SD. Hah! Maybe you got a secret pre-production Nintendo model and you aren't telling us!

Edited by brooce, 18 December 2009 - 06:30 PM.

[TovAre]

...
I have my doubts of superiority. One approach relies on a back-up battery which can always be purchased when the battery runs down after years. The other relies on an embedded, non-removable chip with limited write-life with no option to replace it when it fails (disposing of the unit is the normal course of business these days).

There's cause for doubt, but all components has a rate of failure, and the more components you have the greater the chance there is of the unit failing. In a battery circuit there might be an electrolyte condensator with a limited lifespan. The dielectric may deteriorate to such a point, that a high current passes through it causing damage to the calculator's other circuitry. So in time, the new design may or may not be found to be superior, but in my opinion there's simply not enough evidence at this time to make a conclusion

BTW, under your name, you listed your calculators. It says "DS" instead of SD. Hah! Maybe you got a secret pre-production Nintendo model and you aren't telling us!

Now that would have been cool ... to try out Casio prototypes :-)

[brooce]

There's cause for doubt, but all components has a rate of failure, and the more components you have the greater the chance there is of the unit failing.

More components doesn't necessarily mean the greater chance of the unit failing. Perhaps yes if the quality of components and types of components are similar/same, but not in this example. Here all things are not equal and we have battery back-ups versus the 'newcomer' of flash memory. One has been in-use for many years in many types of products and the other is a relative new-comer for use in backing up RAM, with all the technical hurdles and refinements to be made regarding durability and longevity. As can be seen in previous Casio products implementing flash memory, not all of them have had great life (at least according to Wikipedia). Other flash-based products can and do see failure, also (though it is possible these are using less-durable types of flash memory). All this new implementation against battery back-ups have been tested for many years in many different products. 

In a battery circuit there might be an electrolyte condensator with a limited lifespan. The dielectric may deteriorate to such a point, that a high current passes through it causing damage to the calculator's other circuitry. So in time, the new design may or may not be found to be superior, but in my opinion there's simply not enough evidence at this time to make a conclusion 

There could be a button failure too, for all we know Anyway, I agree there's not enough evidence (unless you buy it and try it over the course over a few years - which I'm unwilling to do since my needs can be satisfied with another product and this was just an extra 'fun' purchase) and there are always weak points in any product, but what we can base decisions on is what we do know, not what we don't (ie. the possibilities of something else failing - which is always a possibility.

But given any company's desire to save dollars, I regard this decision as an ecomonic one, not one that benefits the customer in any way. 

Now that would have been cool ... to try out Casio prototypes :-)

Yeah, if you ever do, tell them they lost a very unimportant customer

[ASTRO491K]

Re: economic decisions. To bad there is this extreme greed thing in the calculator industry that is holding back development. Like where is the new classpad with color screen? (Or the latest and newest design from TI, the nnspire with a color screen?) Cell phones all have high definition color screens but calculators can not be purchases with a color screen, just so that the makers can make a couple of pennies more in profit? I think that the first company to break the color screen barrier will reap big rewards as every one rushes to be the first one on the block to have a color screen calculator to show off. Am I wrong about this?

[brooce]

Re: economic decisions. To bad there is this extreme greed thing in the calculator industry that is holding back development. Like where is the new classpad with color screen? (Or the latest and newest design from TI, the nnspire with a color screen?) Cell phones all have high definition color screens but calculators can not be purchases with a color screen, just so that the makers can make a couple of pennies more in profit? I think that the first company to break the color screen barrier will reap big rewards as every one rushes to be the first one on the block to have a color screen calculator to show off. Am I wrong about this?

There have been some basic colour screen models out, but nothing like a full-colour display like a phone / PDA.

Casio rates the battery life of the ClassPad:

http://www.casio-int.../calc/classpad/

Battery life: Approx. 140 hours continuous operation (assuming 5 minutes
calculation and 55 minutes display per hour)


I think people expect batteries in calculators to last far longer than other devices, so I think battery life is holding them back (as well as the desire to make decent profit) but I think that there's far less demand for full-colour in this market (though it would be nice). 

I guess people don't want to pay too much more than a PDA for a calculator and don't want to charge it / change batteries too often - and the screen must be able to be seen in brightly-lit environments adequately, too (so probably must be transflective, which many phones aren't).