286 replies to this topic

[CrimsonCasio]

i just got home and truned it on.

[Bob Vila]

yeah i'm watching it too

[huhn_m]

@bob:

yeah sorry ... I must have confuse this ...

And yes I watched part of the debate. Not all of it was shown on german
TV because only few people here are really interrested in it and
most do only watch the short version that will be on the news.

I think that Kerry made quite a good figure and had some great things to point out. Bush was not too bad but I would say kerry did the better job.

I liked what he said and he (sometimes) seems really smart to me (at least more often than bush ). Anyways. Can someone tell me if he has said
sth. about drawing back from iraq in the last few days? Would be quite
interresting for our proxy vote

The problem with these debates is that if of the 2 tells you some figures
and the other one says they are wrong nobody is there to tell what is in
fact right or not. Or when Kerry said Bush had not met the represantatives of this black organisation and bush awnsered he had what was right?

Nobody said it. Interresting thing though,

[2072]

Or when Kerry said Bush had not met the represantatives of this black organisation and bush awnsered he had what was right?

In fact Bush did met the represantatives of this black organisation twice... Bush also said untrue things about Kerry like when he said that Kerry voted ~98 times to raise taxes.

Kerry seems to be the winner of this debate, he showed that he have plans, Bush only defended himself.

[Chani]

@ huhn_m:

Can someone tell me if he has said
sth. about drawing back from iraq in the last few days? Would be quite
interresting for our proxy vote

Don't know if this answers your question or not, but Kerry said this in last nights' debate:

"I can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that we will go after the terrorists.

I will hunt them down, and we'll kill them, we'll capture them. We'll do whatever is necessary to be safe.

But I pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure."

I couldn't find any real quote on Kerry's ideas for Iraq, other than critizing Bush. I'm sure you can find a lot of that.

[CrimsonCasio]

In fact Bush did met the represantatives of this black organisation twice... Bush also said untrue things about Kerry like when he said that Kerry voted ~98 times to raise taxes.

actually that is true... dont know where you heard otherwise. still, taken in context its not such an impressive number considering how many things senators vote on. a better figure would be Kerry voted 98 times out of X votes on taxes.

I rather think that bush tied or barely won that debate, he did suprisingly well on what is generally considered to be kerry's home turf.

[huhn_m]

In reply to chani:

This sounds a bit like "we'll stay but want to work togetherwith other
countries.

But I'm not sure ... he must say this more clearly in my opinion.

I'd see this as the best way to solve the solution and to make the US
more accepted again in other counties.

@crimson:

I rather think that bush tied or barely won that debate, he did suprisingly well on what is generally considered to be kerry's home turf

1) He did well because in the end he did not appear as the "enron supporter and rich-ones-taxes-lowerer" that he actually is. Kerry did well and didn't you find his figures with the richest 1% of the americans impressive. The only thing is that bush could always detract from that. Do you considder it OK that the rich ones have to pay less
taxes and that the ordinarry people have to pay more. And I also think the numbers
of the people out of work showed that bush did not to well in his office. He might did not to bad in the debate but he did in his office. And to be honest. Kerry is more a politican for me than bush. He knoes how to express things and how to speak in a proper way. Bush always seems kinda make fun of it all with his always grinning face. He even seems to be grinning when he declares wars ...

Nobody should be blamed for his outer appereance but he should be at least able
to appear honest and earnest when he wants to say something important.

[CrimsonCasio]

1) He did well because in the end he did not appear as the "enron supporter and rich-ones-taxes-lowerer" that he actually is. Kerry did well and didn't you find his figures with the richest 1% of the americans impressive. The only thing is that bush could always detract from that. Do you considder it OK that the rich ones have to pay less

ive heard this figure taken appart before too, its not as bad as it sounds (just like voting 98 times to raise taxes by kerry). you can quote all the figures you want but when you take them out of context and without knowing what they really mean figgures are meainingless.

perhaps you havent heard that the emploment level is higher than it was with clinton? heck, I got a job. when i walk through the mall where i work I can see help wanted signs everywhere, there's got to be at least 10 in the food court alone. the people who are unimployed right now are (mostly) the people that would prefer to collect unimploment checks than do actuall work. heck, even my best friend has a job, and he's so weird that you would think any interviewer would be left feeling slightly confused and more than a little un-nerved after meeting him for the first time, he scares people... and he makes more money than me. (he once, at the target where he works, went to the kids section and on some little recorder/player things recorded (spaced over 3 machines) "I WILL", "DEVOUR", "YOUR SOUL!" in the deepest most demonic voice he could do, which is saying alot as he actually practices do this in his spare time...)

btw, i trust a guy that can laugh alot more than i trust a guy that looks like he died at the podium, i think bush is laughing at everything because 1) hes trying to look more confident and 2) because he finds his opponents remarks obsurd. I'd be laughing too. (and he wasnt smiling/laughing when he declared war, or when he anounced terrorists had attacked us, or any other time he had to anounce something serious... but he's not a politition like kerry so yeah, he's gona laugh at things. when you consider what people laugh at on tv every night i think laughing at an opponents possition is pretty dang good)

[huhn_m]

The figures I heared (and I think they were official I'll search them for you)
said that the employment IS lower than under clinton AND
another thing that is definitive and that you can not deny is that
Bush has made a hell of a bunch of debts. While under clinton you had a plus
under bush you had such a big fat minus you havent had for ages. THat
IS official and I don't think you'll find a source denying it. It was even
on our news.

*edit*

Source for above statements from the last site in the post:


Here are the sources for the unemployment rate (with explanation why some claim that it was actually lower):

http://chris-bowers....9/7/13239/74113

I also found other statistics but yu should always ask yourself if they are not cleaned out. One can make statistics "look good". As a distant related example:

Hitler put the jews and woman and others out of the statistics and reached an unemployment rate of <1% (I think i remember right). So look into the statistics and
look if these are the real ones that do not exclude certain groups. It was the same here when 3 years ago (I think) the people who got time limited jobs from the state
to make their unemployment payments of the social system last longer were taken out. Of course the statistics looked better. But these people were, in fact, still jobless.

See this site that has ALL the statistics AND explains them.
Please before arguing further about the problem read the page!!!

http://www.dohtem.com/wobush/jul.htm

[2072]

In fact Bush did met the represantatives of this black organisation twice... Bush also said untrue things about Kerry like when he said that Kerry voted ~98 times to raise taxes.

actually that is true... dont know where you heard otherwise. still, taken in context its not such an impressive number considering how many things senators vote on. a better figure would be Kerry voted 98 times out of X votes on taxes.

On CNN right adter the debate, Bush was counting wrong votes:

http://factcheck.asc....aspx?docid=247

If the above link is dead, use Google's cache:

http://66.102.9.104/...rry taxes&hl=fr

[CrimsonCasio]

now, im willing to take everything on http://factcheck.org/ as true, since it seems to be quite un-biased, factcheck.org also seems to counter the statements made on http://www.dohtem.com/wobush/jul.htm as being overstated.

if you want to argue with factcheck as the info souce we can do that

(so 2027 is correct, but i did already say that i thought that number was wrong, though i didnt know _how_ wrong)


btw: this is too funny: http://www.wketchup.com/ (I'll have an order of freedom fries with some wketchup )

[Bob Vila]

btw: this is too funny: http://www.wketchup.com/ (I'll have an order of freedom fries with some wketchup )

i found that a couple of months ago, funny stuff

[2072]

and ridiculous...

(I'll have an order of freedom fries with some wketchup  )

Be careful, Bush != Freedom, this melt could poison you

[CrimsonCasio]

yes, its rediculus...
still, the not supporting Heinz ketchup (sp?) is a valid way to protest how kerry is spending his time and money... but freedom fries were just plain goofy

here's something i got in an e-mail today, dont know if its true but I'd like to find out...

Bush paid $250,000 in taxes this year; Kerry paid $90,000. Does that sound
right? The man who wants to raise your taxes obviously has figured out a way to avoid paying his own.

while that statement is obvously partially biased (and possibly untrue), if kerry raises taxes on the rich he will be raising taxes on himself... but i wonder if he plans to exempt himself somehow (thats not far fetched, senators regularly (and quietly) exclude themselves from laws that affect the public. (ex: asset forfiture laws)

[dscoshpe]

I just wanted to throw something in about the unemployment rate that should be considered:

If you have a job and you are in school, then you do *not* impact the unemployment rate the way you think you would. In fact, you are probably hurting it because of the way the statistics are reported. You learn in introductory macroeconomics that the calculation for unemployment rate purposely omits those individuals that are "instituionalized" and (atleast in the US, though it should be the same anywhere) this includes those people that are in school. So I got to work and to school full time, and as a result I have not changed the unemployment rate by getting a job.

Traditionally the unemployment measure is most descriptive of working class people who need regular work, at a family supporting wage, which would rule out most entry-level service oriented business positions ('burger-flipper'). Job outsourcing, closure of factories, etc can be blamed for this one. Also omitted are the jobs occupied by someone who is already employed, so if you have 2 jobs, it is still calculated as 1, if you understand what I mean.

So the interpretation of the unemployment rate is tricky, which is why economists exist. In essence, you could say that our unemployment has gone up because more people are taking on second jobs and going to school so it is just amplifying the 'usual' jobs that go unoccupied because more and more job statistics are being omitted. I dont believe this to be particularly true but it does highlight the point.

- dscoshpe -

[2072]

http://filmstripinternational.com/

[Chani]

http://www.perturb.org/election/

[CrimsonCasio]

hey, i heard yesterday that moore denied that hannity had ever challenged him to a debate, does this not prove him to be a liar? there are millions of whitnesses to the contrary (he says it on tv and radio every day)

[CrimsonCasio]

no, because it was highly publisized when hannity challenged moore when more was going to go to utah, hannity challenged him and when moore declined hannity went anyway (and was on national tv (and not just fox)) giving his speach. (i think it can be confirmed that he told the crowd moore refused to debate him)

if moore didnt know then he was the only person in utah that didnt.

[Chani]

I'm from Utah and watched part of Hannity's speech. He did indeed challenge Moore to a debate, several times, but Moore didn't even acknowledge him. I think that Moore can dish it out, but he can't take it.

[2072]

I think that Micheal Moore meant that Hannity "never ask him to debate", that's all, Hannity just made a wide announcement but never asked MM. That is quite unpolite from Hannity.

Anyway MM isn't a stupid man if he had to lie, he'd do it in a more discret way.

I read that Hannity has a strange way to lead debates: he doesn't let his oponnent a chance to answer by interrupting him or by asking unanswerable questions (ie: asking to respond by yes or no to question that can't be answered by yes or no)...

(read the replies to that post: http://www.political...opic.php?t=9860 )

---
Well 67% Kerry for me ( http://www.perturb.org/election/ ), at least this site doesn't seem biased.

But Chani (and all Bush lovers), can you say me why Bush behavior (I don't talk about his ideas) during the last 4 years doesn't bother you?
- He lied about WOMD
- He lied about Iraq being a threat for the USA or a cover for Bin Ladden
- He spit on UNO and decided to start a war on his own.
- He "won" the election in a strange way, didn't he?
- He has many friends around the Saoudies that invest a lot of money with him.
- He help Ladden familie to escape after 9/11 without questionning them about Bin Ladden (their plane was the only one authorize to fly).
- He used God to legitimate his actions (like terrorists?) (an interesting article about Bush as a Christian: http://www.counterpu...en04222003.html )
- and a lot other things I forgot

Even if his economical plans would be a 100000 times better than Kerry's, I would not vote for such a man! Would you?

When Clinton was caught being **** by a woman (maybe paid by republicans to discredit him?) it was such a terrible scandal! He was even asked to resign... But all Bush lies are OK! That is what I can't understand with americans...

[Bob Vila]

- He lied about WOMD

no, he was given crappy information, the same information that was given to the clintons for 8 years prior to bush (he was just to lazy to do anything about it)

- He lied about Iraq being a threat for the USA or a cover for Bin Ladden

maybe iraq is not a threat to us, but he did have the means and intent to build nuclear weapons (the UN guy even said so) which would have made him a threat, not only to us, but to our allies (isreal).
covering for bin laden??? please clarify.

- He spit on UNO and decided to start a war on his own.

your lucky not enough people voted to take us out of the UN, that would have made you happy

- He "won" the election in a strange way, didn't he?

no. i dont know how many times we have to go over this. it dosent matter who wins the popular vote, it matters who wins the electoral vote, which bush did.

- He help Ladden familie to escape after 9/11 without questionning them about Bin Ladden (their plane was the only one authorize to fly).

not true. "Moore is guilty of a classic game of saying one thing and implying another when he describes how members of the Saudi elite were flown out of the United States shortly after 9/11.

If you listen only to what Moore says during this segment of the movie?and take careful notes in the dark?you?ll find he?s got his facts right. He and others in the film state that 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country after Sept. 13.

The date?Sept. 13?is crucial because that is when a national ban on air traffic, for security purposes, was eased

But nonetheless, many viewers will leave the movie theater with the impression that the Saudis, thanks to special treatment from the White House, were permitted to fly away when all other planes were still grounded. This false impression is created by Moore?s failure, when mentioning Sept. 13, to emphasize that the ban on flights had been eased by then. The false impression is further pushed when Moore shows the singer Ricky Martin walking around an airport and says, "Not even Ricky Martin would fly. But really, who wanted to fly? No one. Except the bin Ladens."

But the movie fails to mention that the FBI interviewed about 30 of the Saudis before they left. And the independent 9/11 commission has reported that "each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure.""

- He has many friends around the Saoudies that invest a lot of money with him.

also a lie.

Moore asks Craig Unger: "How much money do the Saudis have invested in America, roughly?"

Unger replies, "Uh, I've heard figures as high as $860 billion dollars."

What is the basis of Unger's claim? The $860 billion figure appears on page 28 of Unger's House of Bush, House of Saud. He cites two sources: The Saudi Ambassador's 1996 speech to the U.S.-Saudi Arabian Business Council. In that speech, Prince Bandar discussed the Saudi economy, but said nothing about the size of Saudi investment in the U.S.

Unger's other cited source is a February 11, 2002, Washington Post story, titled "Enormous Wealth Spilled Into American Coffers." The $860 billion figure does not appear there, either. The article states:

    After nearly three decades of accumulating this wealth, the group referred to by bankers as "high net worth Saudi individuals" holds between $500 billion and $1 trillion abroad, most of it in European and American investments. Brad Bourland, chief economist of the Saudi American Bank (one-quarter owned by Citibank), said in a speech in London last June that his bank's best estimate of the total is about $700 billion, with the possibility that it is as much as $1 trillion.

    Raymond Seitz, vice chairman of Lehman Brothers in London and a former U.S. ambassador to Britain, gave a similar estimate. Seitz said Saudis typically put about three-quarters of their money into the United States, the rest in Europe and Asia. That would mean that Saudi nationals have invested perhaps $500 billion to $700 billion in the American economy.

In short, Unger's cited sources do not support his $860 billion figure. He may have "heard" the figure of $860 billion dollars, but only from people who were repeating the factoid which he invented.

According to the Institute for Research Middle Eastern Policy (a pro-Saudi think tank which tries to emphasize the importance of Saudi money to the United States), in February 2003 total worldwide Saudi investment was at least $700 billion, conservatively estimated. Sixty percent of the Saudi investments were in the United States, so the Saudis had at least 420 billion dollars invested in the U.S. (Tanya C. Hsu , "The United States Must Not Neglect Saudi Arabian Investment," Sept. 23, 2003.)

Unger is asked "what percentage of our economy is that?" (Meaning the supposed $860 billion.)

He replies, "Well, in terms of investments on Wall Street, American equities, it's roughly six or seven percent of America. They own a fairly good slice of America." A little bit later, Moore states that "Saudi Prince Bandar is perhaps the best protected ambassador in the US...Considering how he and his family, and the Saudi elite own seven percent of America, it's probably not a bad idea."

According the Census Bureau, the top countries which own U.S. stocks and bonds are the United Kingdom and Japan. Foreign investors owned $1,690 billion in corporate bonds in 2002. The Census Bureau lists the major national holders, and then groups all the minor holders--including Saudi Arabia--into "Other Countries." All of these other countries combined (including Saudi Arabia) account for only 6 percent of total foreign ownership of U.S. corporate bonds. Likewise, all "Other Countries" combined account for only 7 percent of total foreign ownership of corporate stocks. (And of course the large majority of U.S. corporate stocks and bonds are owned by Americans.) Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States, table 1203.

According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, total foreign investment in the United States in 2003 was $10,515 billion dollars. This means that even if the figure that Unger "heard" about Saudis having $860 billion is correct, then the Saudis would only have about 8 percent of total foreign investment in the United States. Unless you believe that almost all American assets are owned by foreigners, then it cannot possibly be true that Saudis "own seven percent of America."

[Moore response: Cites Unger's book, and a lawyer who filed an anti-Saudi lawsuit and repeated the Unger figure. Does not address the fact that Unger's sources do not support his claim. Points out that the capitalization of the New York Stock Exchange composite is $12 trillion and that $860 billion amounts to approximately 7 percent of that. But even if the Saudis owned 7% of the stocks on the New York Stock Exchange, the NYSE does not include all of America's wealth--which includes real estate, businesses which are not traded on the NYSE because they are privately owned, and so on. The data show that the Saudis own between 4% (420 billion) and 7% (700 billion) of total foreign investment in the U.S. Moore's assertion that Saudis "own seven percent of America" is completely false.]

please read that carefully

When Clinton was caught being **** by a woman (maybe paid by republicans to discredit him?) it was such a terrible scandal! He was even asked to resign

yeah, republicans are known to pay people to go and sleep with the president just to discredit him. give me a break. clinton didn't need anyone to discredit him, he was doing fine himself.
and he wasnt asked to resign, he was almost forced. and it wasnt because of having sex, it was because he lied under oath.

[CrimsonCasio]

actually, the real scandal was that he lied about it under oath, thats what got him up for impeachment.

[Bob Vila]

yeah, just like i said...

[2072]

no, he was given crappy information, the same information that was given to the clintons for 8 years prior to bush (he was just to lazy to do anything about it)

If you read my post you'd remember that I posted a link just saying the contrary: http://expage.com/notowar14f

maybe iraq is not a threat to us, but he did have the means and intent to build nuclear weapons (the UN guy even said so) which would have made him a threat, not only to us, but to our allies (isreal).
covering for bin laden??? please clarify.

"covering for bin laden???", by Bin Laden I meant Al Qaeda...

I don't think that he had the means, no "means" had been found in Iraq, The intent? Maybe one of his dream...

your lucky not enough people voted to take us out of the UN, that would have made you happy

You really don't understand anything... I don't hate USA, I just hate Bush and all his government for everything I just said in this thread.

no. i dont know how many times we have to go over this. it dosent matter who wins the popular vote, it matters who wins the electoral vote, which bush did.

Maybe this whole election is just a masquerade and an illusion for people to think their country is a democracy... But it's not a reason to cheat!

not true. "Moore is guilty of a classic game of saying one thing and implying another when he describes how members of the Saudi elite were flown out of the United States shortly after 9/11.

So the flight of the Saudi "elite" was just a coincidence and had nothing to do with 9/11?

I read that they did question the Laden family, but if you read closer or do some maths you'll see that they were questioned during only one day! Is this how investigations are lead in your country? When there is a suspect, you ask a few question to his family and allow them to fly out of the country?

He has many friends around the Saoudies that invest a lot of money with him.

also a lie.

Really? hmmm... you're right, it's not with the Saoudies, it's with the Bin Laden's family.

Lies? Well read this post: http://www.abovetops...9/pg1#pid628277

Moore didn't tell everything about the Great Bush family... You'll be surprised! Don't hesitate to use google to check for other sources about what is beeing said in that post because even for me it's difficult to belive! (like this search Adolf Hitler banker bush family)

-- other related links about connections between Bin Laden's family and Bush:

http://www.americanf...eorge_w__b.html


You should read http://www.freedomdo...unt/link1j.html (and please read it).

and http://www.saudi-bin...com/insider.htm (a strange coincidence)

Oh I just found something great: a non biased review of F911 (from Canada): http://www.filmjudge...hrenheit911.htm

[Bob Vila]

If you read my post you'd remember that I posted a link just saying the contrary: http://expage.com/notowar14f

and if you'll remember i posted actuall quotes by the clintons and several democrats saying iraq had wmd for 8 years before bush took office.
i had a look at your site, and in case you've forgotten, the united states had 4-5 terrorist attacks by al-queda mind you, and clinton did nothing about it. there was even a freaken country that offered osama bin laden to clinton, and guess what, he didn't take him, big suprise. funny how moore misses that point in his movie and books.

You really don't understand anything... I don't hate USA, I just hate Bush and all his government for everything I just said in this thread.

i never said that you hated the US, but you sure havent said anything to the contrary.

Maybe this whole election is just a masquerade and an illusion for people to think their country is a democracy... But it's not a reason to cheat!

what???? holy crap man, go to google, search how the election works, and see for yourself that BUSH DID NOT FREAKING CHEAT. Gore won the popular vote, but bush won the electoral vote, so he won. its not that hard to get.

So the flight of the Saudi "elite" was just a coincidence and had nothing to do with 9/11?

did you happen to remember that osama was exiled from saudi arabia? also something moore forgot to mention i see.

I read that they did question the Laden family, but if you read closer or do some maths you'll see that they were questioned during only one day! Is this how investigations are lead in your country? When there is a suspect, you ask a few question to his family and allow them to fly out of the country?

no usually. i can't say that i agree with the way the FBI handeled it, but the FBI is not controlled by bush...

Oh I just found something great: a non biased review of F911 (from Canada): http://www.filmjudge...hrenheit911.htm

unbiased my butt. canada is a liberal breeding ground, and even if it werent, nothing about politics is unbiased, you'll do well to remember that.
btw, what was so great about that article? a bunch of socialists tooting moore's horn? woopie doo.

i wont comment on those other links yet because i dont have time to read them all right now
btw2, sorry if it seems like i'm venting, my aunt called my mom this moring and said that she dosent think my grandma will live longer than today or tommorow. and there has been a lot of stress around my house since then, so i'm sorry again.

[huhn_m]

1st time 63% for kerry
2nd time 72% or so for kerry

It is sad that we, as non-americans, have to explain your voting system to you...

1) The public vote elects the electoral colege people for EACH country.
2) These elect the president.
3) If the public vote in Florida would have been for Gore instead of for
bush, what would have been the case if they counted the votes properly
and did not hinder several people from their legal right to vote.
4) Then the electoral colege votes of this state would have gone for Gore
and because of the nearly tied result this would have made the difference.

Btw. In most european states (if not in all, I don't know) you country is not
democratic after our definition of democracy since elections should
be direct and not over an electoral college or sth. like that since this
may give you not the president the public wants.

i never said that you hated the US, but you sure havent said anything to the contrary.

But you made it look like we would like to get rid of the US in the UN.
This is a silly and un-matture way to look at the facts. And the facts are
that the US in fact are no real member of the UN. If they make what they
want and are only glad if the UN apporves it and don't care if the don't this
institution should be called the UNUTLOTUS (UN under the Leadership of the US). You do what you want and are glad that you can prevent other countries from doing what they want with your veto. It may seem strange to you but this is why many nations hate you for beeing selfish.
You may be the strongest nation in the world, no doubt, but you seem to
proove that thes strongest are not neccesarily the wisest. You should considder the counsil of others (that do not follow you blindly like the UK did in iraq). You should CONSIDDER their counsils and not only listen to them and then do what you want anyways.

Most nations DO want the US in the UN but not as the "nation who is always right and does what it wants"

Btw. in my sense of states and stuff liberal is the thing that is good and conservative is a bad thing because it is looking back at old things and closes its minds towards new things.

Just my 2 cents

[Killer83Z]

unbiased my butt. canada is a liberal breeding ground, and even if it werent, nothing about politics is unbiased, you'll do well to remember that.
btw, what was so great about that article? a bunch of socialists tooting moore's horn? woopie doo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Liberalists? Socialists? Nazi talk! When they didn't blame the jews, then they blamed the liberalists...in fact the jews were communist liberalists as well. Just something I noticed.

[the_unknown_one]

Bush sucks!! Here's the proof: http://www.xaviersit.../x-ray-bush.htm

[2072]

and if you'll remember i posted actuall quotes by the clintons and several democrats saying iraq had wmd for 8 years before bush took office.

Maybe they were not so sure about those reports and did think a bit more before starting a war.

i had a look at your site, and in case you've forgotten, the united states had 4-5 terrorist attacks by al-queda mind you, and clinton did nothing about it.  there was even a freaken country that offered osama bin laden to clinton, and guess what, he didn't take him, big suprise. funny how moore misses that point in his movie and books.

Doing nothing is still better than attacking a country that have nothing to do with Al Qeada...
Btw, the fact that Clinton "did nothing" isn't an excuse for Bush.

In F911 Moore talks about Bush not about Clinton and if you'd have seen it, you'd know that he was not so kind with democrats because they did nothing after Bush "won" the "public" elections.

i never said that you hated the US, but you sure havent said anything to the contrary.

Well unfortunately as the way it is now, I can't say I love America, that's why I'm trying to convince you to not vote for Bush that represents only what all non-american hate in American culture (money, guns, world domination) even if that means that you have to vote for Kerry...

Kerry isn't a perfect president but he doesn't seem to be rulled by money like Bush family is (read the links in my previous post to see what I mean)

did you happen to remember that osama was exiled from saudi arabia? also something moore forgot to mention i see.

Maybe but in those planes the Saoudies were mainly Laden family members with whom Bush family has a lot of business relations (also in the links of my previous post)

I can't say that i agree with the way the FBI handeled it, but the FBI is not controlled by bush...

If the president ask something to the FBI, I'm not sure they can refuse...

btw2, sorry if it seems like i'm venting, my aunt called my mom this moring and said that she dosent think my grandma will live longer than today or tommorow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well sorry about that, I hope she won't suffer

[Bob Vila]

[quote]But you made it look like we would like to get rid of the US in the UN.[/quote]
i was being sarcastic.
[quote]It is sad that we, as non-americans, have to explain your voting system to you...[/quote]
right
[quote]1) The public vote elects the electoral colege people for EACH country.[/quote]
the electoral college that elects the president is made up of the representatives in the house, and the number of senators (every state has 2). so, utah has 3 representatives in the house and 2 senators, giving it 5 electoral votes.
[quote]2) These elect the president.[/quote]
good job :claps:
[quote]4) Then the electoral colege votes of this state would have gone for Gore
and because of the nearly tied result this would have made the difference.[/quote]
not nessasary, they dont have to vote the way the state votes, and it wouldn't be the first time it happened.
[quote]Btw. In most european states (if not in all, I don't know) you country is not
democratic after our definition of democracy since elections should
be direct and not over an electoral college or sth. like that since this
may give you not the president the public wants.[/quote]
yes, in your definition. but the USA is a democracy, a Representative Democracy to be excact.
[quote]Btw. in my sense of states and stuff liberal is the thing that is good and conservative is a bad thing because it is looking back at old things and closes its minds towards new things.[/quote]
i am conservative because i dont believe in gay marriage, abortion, raising taxes, socialistic health, ect.
[quote]Liberalists? Socialists? Nazi talk! When they didn't blame the jews, then they blamed the liberalists...in fact the jews were communist liberalists as well. Just something I noticed.[/quote]
have you ever been to canada? it is a liberal breeding ground, and guess what, its mostly a socialist country. it makes me a nazi for noticing???
[quote]Maybe they were not so sure about those reports and did think a bit more before starting a war.[/quote]
go back and read the quotes again.
[quote]Doing nothing is still better than attacking a country that have nothing to do with Al Qeada...[/quote]
appeasement is better than action?? 9/11 could have been provented if clinton would have taken osama when he was offered, and actually did something when we were attacked before. he could have stopped al-queda before it got as large as it is now.
[quote]In F911 Moore talks about Bush not about Clinton and if you'd have seen it, you'd know that he was not so kind with democrats because they did nothing after Bush "won" the "public" elections.[/quote]
why? they couldn't do anything, bush won fair and square no matter how many times you argue it.
[quote]Well unfortunately as the way it is now, I can't say I love America,[/quote]
sadly, most americans think the same about the french/germans.
[quote]I'm trying to convince you to not vote for Bush that represents only what all non-american hate in American culture (money, guns, world domination) even if that means that you have to vote for Kerry...[/quote]
dude, i'm only 17, i can't vote. but you can be serious about world domination right? honestly, if we were bent on conquering the world, we would have attacked europe first, then china, russia, and then the middle east. not the other way around guns. why are you guys so against them? i mean its my constitutional right to bear arms. and how many guns used in crimes are purchased legaly? gun control laws only hurt honest people. (the bad guys are going to get guns no matter what the laws are, take drugs for an example)
[quote]If the president ask something to the FBI, I'm not sure they can refuse...[/quote]
i'm not sure what you are getting at.
[quote]Well sorry about that, I hope she won't suffer[/quote]
thanks. but she died about 6:30pm last night she had 2-3 strokes about 6 months ago, and we have been waiting for a phone call about her since then. (she was 87)

--edit--
huhn_m, as i re-read your post, i realize you were right about the electoral college (about #1. anyways), but i was too . i just misread

Edited by Bob Vila, 25 October 2004 - 12:53 AM.

[CrimsonCasio]

taxes: http://www.factcheck...article100.html, http://www.factcheck...article101.html

jobs: http://www.factcheck...article108.html, http://www.factcheck...article151.html

anti-moore: http://www.factcheck...article131.html

freaky twists: http://www.factcheck...article144.html

deficit clarification: http://www.factcheck...article148.html

overall: http://www.factcheck...article117.html

probably the only think i think kerry has going for him:

Patriot Act Spin

The Bush ad also says Kerry would "weaken" the USA Patriot Act "used to arrest terrorists and protect America." But that's a matter of opinion.

Kerry voted for the act and even boasts of drafting some of its provisions relating to money-laundering. But he has also talked of "abuses" of the act by Bush's Attorney General, John Ashcroft, and has said some portions of the act need changing.

After learning of the Bush ad, the Kerry camp called anew for "reforming" the act: "John Kerry believes it is necessary to scale back several provisions in the Patriot Act and introduce a new law to assure our enhanced security does not come at the expense of our civil liberties, such as more oversight of sneak and peak searches."

That's a reference to search warrants that judges can issue in special cases to allow a search without notification to the subject.

Pressed on precisely how Kerry would "weaken" the act, Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said rolling back any provision of the act weakens it.  "That's our position," he told FactCheck.org.

to tired to comment on all that, got to sleep... *yawn*

[Chani]

But Chani (and all Bush lovers), can you say me why Bush behavior (I don't talk about his ideas) during the last 4 years doesn't bother you?

When did I ever say that I was a Bush lover? If you read my previous posts, you will see that I said that I did not vote for Bush in the 2000 election. I told you my reasons then. But sadly, the world has changed a little bit since then. Bush acted in a time when my country needed action. How would you feel if the same thing had happened in Berlin? How would you feel if people you knew (and yes, I knew some in NYC) were there, hurt, dying? What would you do, 2072? How would you feel? I want you to tell me that you wouldn't do anything you could to protect those that were still living, those that had been hurt. Would you sit by idly and make comments about the leadership of your country? Would you support a leader your country who just sat back and said, "yes, that's very sad that thousands of our countrymen just died today. Let's get a committee together and talk about it. We'll have a coalition, that'll solve the problem." Wow. I feel so safe.

I am not a "Bush lover." I support action. I support my military. I support someone who will take action to protect me, my friends, those I love, and my fellow countrymen. Now if knowing that someone is safe is going to make life a little harder for you, well I'm sorry.

I'm trying to convince you to not vote for Bush that represents only what all non-american hate in American culture (money, guns, world domination) even if that means that you have to vote for Kerry...

So, I should vote the way that you think I should, so that you will sleep a little easier at night? And sweetie, if we wanted to dominate the world, you'd be singing "God bless America" instead of "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit." But we're not trying to dominate the world, now are we? We'd just like to sleep safe at night, like any other person in this world has a right to. Don't even try to take that right away from me.

What is it that you hate so much about Americans? I want a good solid answer, not a vague, "money and guns" answer. If you hate Americans because of money, then you've got the wrong idea. Yes there are many Americans with a lot of wealth. I am not one of them. Would you like to see my bank account right now? I hold two jobs and it's still rather dusty.

As for guns, it will probably make you happy to know (because it will, supposedly supposedly, back up what you've got to say) that I shoot, and am a wonderful shot. But do not think that because I support my Second Amendment rights, I do not hold a respect for guns. I have had a gun stuck in my face. And yet, I still support the right to bear arms. Because I have faith in the Constitution. Now, a peace of paper wouldn't have stopped that person from blowing my head off, but it could prevent future people from dying because of it. Why? Because I believe in action. I believe in getting up off your ass and doing something about the world you live in! That's why I'm going to vote. That's why I participate in my local government. That's why I am an educated woman. Sitting on your butt arguing about it is a great way to pass the time, but let's face it pal, it's not going to change anything.

[2072]

[quote]appeasement is better than action?? 9/11 could have been provented if clinton would have taken osama when he was offered, and actually did something when we were attacked before. he could have stopped al-queda before it got as large as it is now.
[/quote]

Bush was not elected on 9/11 you know? He had 9 months for doing something, why he didn't? It's easy to say all that did happen during his presidence is Clinton's fault...

If clinton didn't took Osama it's because in 1996 he had no proof against him.
The whole story: http://prisonplanet...._bin_laden.html

If Clinton made errors, Bush shouldn't be excused, that's too easy, he had 9 months... he did nothing.

And yes appeasement is better than mindless action that kills innocent citizens.

[quote][quote]
Well unfortunately as the way it is now, I can't say I love America,
[/quote]
sadly, most americans think the same about the french/germans.
[/quote]

Because we are not a puppet that always nod?

[quote]dude, i'm only 17, i can't vote. but you can be serious about world domination right? honestly, if we were bent on conquering the world, we would have attacked europe first, then china, russia, and then the middle east. not the other way around
[/quote]

Sorry, "World domination" isn't the right word, I meant "supremacy of America over the world": "Since we are the most powerful country we don't need advice, we are always right, we are perfect", that's what Bush underlines, and it's easy to understand that this kind of behaviour isn't pleasant for non-americans, is it?

[quote]guns. why are you guys so against them? i mean its my constitutional right to bear arms.
[/quote]

Guns only bring violence, you cannot make good by shooting.

To CrimsonCasio: Interesting but you put no link about Bush relations with the Bin Laden and no comment about Bush Grand father beeing Hitler's banker (which underline the fact that moral isn't important when there is money to take).

Did you read my post? Why do you say nothing about that? So here are those links again:

[quote=2072] http://www.abovetops...9/pg1#pid628277

Moore didn't tell everything about the Great Bush family... You'll be surprised! Don't hesitate to use google to check for other sources about what is beeing said in that post because even for me it's difficult to belive! (like this search Adolf Hitler banker bush family)

-- other related links about connections between Bin Laden's family and Bush:

http://www.americanf...eorge_w__b.html


You should read http://www.freedomdo...unt/link1j.html (and please read it).

and http://www.saudi-bin...com/insider.htm (a strange coincidence)

[/quote]


[quote=Chani]When did I ever say that I was a Bush lover? If you read my previous posts, you will see that I said that I did not vote for Bush in the 2000 election. I told you my reasons then. But sadly, the world has changed a little bit since then. Bush acted in a time when my country needed action. How would you feel if the same thing had happened in Berlin?
[/quote]

I said that because you support him.

You know I was agree when Bush bomb afghanistan, to destroy terrorist's camps. I thought it was fair, I was even surprised by Bush behavior, I didn't thought he would be capable of acting like he did...
Unfortunately he let Osama bin laden escape and stop his action in Afghanistan, and then did what we are talking about since so long.

His first action after the 9/11 was good because he was targetting guilty people. But why Iraq? They had nothing to do with terrorists, they only had oil.

[quote]How would you feel if people you knew (and yes, I knew some in NYC) were there, hurt, dying? What would you do, 2072?
[/quote]

I would take action against terrorism, punish the one who did that and make sure it won't happen again, I certainly won't attack innocent people!

By doing that Bush only created more terrorists more hatred against the country he is supposed to protect.
Think about the family of the innocent civilian killed by Americans, what do they feel? Do you think they will ever love Americans?
I think that like you they'll take actions against their "terrorist". Because for innocent Iraqies YOU are the terrorists who kill innocents. Doesn't it make sense?

[quote]I am not a "Bush lover." I support action. I support my military. I support someone who will take action to protect me, my friends, those I love, and my fellow countrymen. Now if knowing that someone is safe is going to make life a little harder for you, well I'm sorry.
[/quote]

Even mindless actions? What you don't understand is that Bush doesn't protect America, on the contrary. You are not safe.

[quote]What is it that you hate so much about Americans? I want a good solid answer, not a vague, "money and guns" answer. If you hate Americans because of money, then you've got the wrong idea.
[/quote]

I didn't say I hate Americans, I've a cousin who is American and who live in LA (who hates Bush too). What I hate is the American government.

What I mean is that in your country everything seems to be ruled by money, money means power for anyone in the USA, people are ready to kill for money etc...
Bush family represents just that: Money is Power, we do business regardless of moral as soon as there is money to take (think about Hitler's banker or links between Laden and Bush).

[quote]As for guns, it will probably make you happy to know that I shoot, and am a wonderful shot.
[/quote]

No sorry that doesn't make me happy, on the contrary.

[quote]I have had a gun stuck in my face. And yet, I still support the right to bear arms.
...
Now, a peace of paper wouldn't have stopped that person from blowing my head off
[/quote]

Sorry you had to endure that but if guns were not so easy to find in your country maybe that person would never had obtain his gun.

[quote]Why? Because I believe in action. I believe in getting up off your ass and doing something about the world you live in! That's why I'm going to vote. That's why I participate in my local government. That's why I am an educated woman. Sitting on your butt arguing about it is a great way to pass the time, but let's face it pal, it's not going to change anything.
[/quote]

I prefer to think before acting: To think if my action is right or about the possible bad consequences it could create...
Mindless action is worse than doing nothing. That is why Bush is worse than Kerry.

[Andy.Davies]

i wil just add this into the mix:

in America, you vote for people, who vote for the presidential candiadate they want, whereas here in britan we vote for the bloke we want ourselves, this makes it less suseptable to rigging of the vote (i cant think of the word i mean). although there is an advantage to your system:

if the president turns out bad, you can blame someone else, whereas we just have ourselves to blame...

(not bad for me, considering i can barly sytand up (im quite drunk))

[dscoshpe]

The electoral votes the US uses dont really work based on the opinion of the person who wields the electoral vote. They must vote according to the popular figures acquired from their district.

This system was introduced due to the nature of the US geographics, where many people live on farms and many others in cities, and the whole mixture in between. This way, just because there are more people in cities, it does not mean they can control any particular elections results simply by sheer number. For instance, a particular district may have results like 99000 to 1000 but still only give 1 electoral vote to a candidate whereas another district can be 51000 to 49000 and again only one electoral vote is offered either way. Think about it.

- dscoshpe -

[huhn_m]

Hallo Chani! Wie gehts?

How would you feel if the same thing had happened in Berlin? How would you feel if people you knew (and yes, I knew some in NYC) were there, hurt, dying? What would you do, 2072? How would you feel? I want you to tell me that you wouldn't do anything you could to protect those that were still living, those that had been hurt. Would you sit by idly and make comments about the leadership of your country? Would you support a leader your country who just sat back and said, "yes, that's very sad that thousands of our countrymen just died today. Let's get a committee together and talk about it. We'll have a coalition, that'll solve the problem." Wow. I feel so safe.

I'd be agaisnt attacing an inoccent country. Of course I'd like to see my
country take action but action that is thought of before. And YES a coallition is better then doing sth. against the opinion of the rest of the world.

But we're not trying to dominate the world, now are we? We'd just like to sleep safe at night, like any other person in this world has a right to. Don't even try to take that right away from me.

If the iraqi people heard this they must feel ... I don't know the word. It must seem like "Hohn" (german) to them. They don't have a right to slee safe at night? You take yourself the right to take THIS right away from THEM? Noone wants to take any rights away from you but we also do not want YOU to take rights away from others.

Btw. I agree to andy. (except the I'm drunk statement).

PS: If I say "YOu" I mean the american gov. not (in all cases) your people.

[Chani]

@Huhn: Es geht, aber nicht so gut. Ich bin krank und ich muss schlafen. Auch ist meine Oma gestorben. Und du? Wie gehts? Also, habst du ein Film gerufen "Die Prinzessin (?) und der Krieger "gesehen ? Franka Potente ist meine Lieblingsschauspielerin. Ich liebe auch ihre Musik. Es tut mir leid, es ist spat. Mein Deutsch ist schlecht!

I think I get what you're saying about the comment I made about sleeping safe at night. Point taken.

You know, things with the election are really starting to annoy me, mostly with state elections. I am very grateful for the humor of Jay Leno, who makes both candidates look foolish. Not exactly respectful, but it's nice that we can all laugh about it in the end.

[huhn_m]

Mein Beileid wegen deiner Oma ...
Den Film habe ich nicht gesehen aber ich kenne andere Filme mit Franka Potente ("The Bourne Identity"). Sie sieht echt nicht schlecht aus .
Ich wu?te gar nicht, dass sie Musik macht ... Dein Deutsch ist doch gut ...
manche Leute die in Deutschland leben sprechen schlechter Deutsch ...

yeah ... I like political satire if it is unbiased.